This is a complicated multi-facetted issue so I'm only going to comment on one aspect of it. Your attitude and mental health.

Just think carefully about each avenue you want to take and how that will impact your well-being and productivity.

There's an opportunity cost to chasing the money. In the time spent chasing it, you could instead be earning it back doing other work and be happier for it. Then it may be worth considering. I don't have a full picture of your earning potential and financial situation so I can't comment either way here.

Anecdotally, I was over billed by my electricity suppliers by ~£50. I could have let it go but I chased it and spent hours on the phone and writing emails to them. I filed complaints and threatened to go the regulator. It made me very angry and I could have spent that time far more productively and earned £50 doing something else. So with hindsight, I would do things differently.

I know my example is small compared to yours but useful none the less.

Fantastic input.

That said, this would be a good learning experience as they don't teach "How to be a free lancer" in college.

I shared my thoughts here and would like to hear what you think (besides the awful formatting)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17148628

Adding to this. My first job out of college was with a con artist who is probably still conning people today.

There were contracts, everything seemed reasonable, and then the excuses for non payment started piling up. By month 3 I still had seen nothing. Even after a year very little had been paid. Years later, thousands of dollars still unpaid and just lies and excuses.

I still hate asking for money that's due to me and not getting paid for the work you did is a real shitty place to be. This person did the same thing and berated me when I said I would take legal action. When I did take legal action, their entire company was a scam and I couldn't even deliver a court notice because they were hiding out of the country.

Every time I see this person's name it angers me because I just want to metaphorically burn their business to the ground. When I blocked this person and erased them from my life, I became a lot happier. I took it as a learning lesson and developed an archetype for psychopaths to avoid. Some day they will get their reckoning but it's not worth my time or mental health.

Tl;dr: The impacts to your mental health might be many hours over years. It was for me anyway.

Honestly nothing about that seems very professional from either side. You called him names, he called you names, and everyone's feelings got hurt. That sounds like one of those "friendship" business arrangements.

Agreeing to equity might muddy the waters. Equity is worthless, but by agreeing to it in lieu of a fixed amount, you've set a value. So you likely aren't getting 17K but may get the equity you agreed to in writing (assuming you haven't already).

Hopefully your invoices contained a due date, and your contract a clause allowing interest or penalty on late payment. If he is passed due, continue to send him notices but do them via tracked postage (and include interest if applicable).

If you plan to sue, which it sounds like you'll need to, start getting everything in writing. No more phone calls at all.

If he ignores your late notices get a lawyer to write a letter giving him a final settlement amount before the suit is filed, and then have them file if he ignores it.

A layer will take this, but expect them to take the lion's share. It still might make financial sense, even based on the settlement figures you yourself suggested in the OP.

By the way:

> After him shutting down communication, I reached out to his investors, which got him talking again.

I'd make sure to honestly tell the lawyer exactly what you said to his investors, a countersuit for defamation could ruin the case (make it cost-not-viable).

Thank you. I agree. It is not professional. I didn't call him names, but I would say feelings got hurt.

Equity won't happen now.

There was no contract. It was verbal mainly.

Thank you for the final settlement amount. I appreciate that advice!

I don't really care about the money now, rather the principle that he can't renegotiate invoices when he feels like it. His integrity is lost.

Defamation for what? For speaking to his investors? I sent them notice that I was informing them. I didn't want to threaten them. But I guess by notifying his customer base and buyers, it could be seen as that?

Cost-not-viable. Appreciate you lining that up!

If you don't have a written contract, and everything was verbal - you don't have a chance whatsoever to sue and come out victorious.

It sounds like unless you can pressure the individuals involved, a judge will be a sore disappointment. Feel free to talk to a lawyer, but no lawyer will take this case unless you pay them upfront and they will likely tell you that you are going to lose this and its not worth your time/money.

Any agreement, whether written or verbal, is legally binding so long as it's mutual, voluntary, and not fraudulent.

Pure verbal agreements are obviously much more difficult to evidence, but any physical evidence whatsoever that indicates the existence and form of an agreement -- even text messages between the two of you -- will readily bind the parties in court.

Nothing having a contract does not mean everything is lost. Many people are giving this advise, "oh but you don't have a contract".

Even if you don't have a contract It does not mean someone can keep your money.

As long as you can prove it's your money which is unlawfully kept hostage, you can sue.

If there's no contract, does he own the code? Did you write code? Without a contract, it might still be yours. Is it enough to take away his business?

I'm not saying that you should, but it's worth keeping in mind and discussing with your lawyer.

Hey there,

While I can't offer any legal advice (I would recommend not trying to sue this person, especially if they have more resources than you do - they'll just counter-use you to such a degree it won't be worth it).

I'm working on a project over here that is aimed to help freelancers avoid situations like these: www.knowtheypay.com.

You are exactly the sort of person I'm hoping to help in the future - unfortunately, I've found that the best method for dealing with clients like these is avoiding them at all costs.

Again, I'm really sorry this happened to you. Wish I could send you a beer (or coffee) via HN!

Go get a free consultation from some lawyers and see what they have to say. I personal would sue If you don't mind burning that bridge for good. But I think no matter what you do talk to some lawyers.

I once had a client refuse to pay €600. That amount is just not worth going to court over. Suck it up and move on.

But $17k? That definitely sounds like court material. Talk to a lawyer. Did you keep all of your invoices and your communication about this?

One thing that might work against you is that you continued working for him after he underpaid your invoices. When a client refuses to pay, quit. If they promise to compensate in other ways that are acceptable to you, make sure you get it in contract.

Most of all, though: talk to a lawyer.

It depends on the country.

In the UK, a small claims court will happily take on such small amounts, with no lawyers involved. It usually won't take up more than a few hours of your time, especially if you've done the process before.

You might be able to win your paypal dispute if there are emails from him indicating to you that he had made that payment amount. Upload all the emails relating to that payment from him. You could include one that shows he's making threats against you around the time he filed the dispute.

I had a client's wife dispute a payment through paypal because she didn't recognize the charge. I uploaded an email from him indicating he had sent me the paypal payment and they dismissed the dispute without input from him. (he said he'd just send me another payment if they reversed it)

I would offer to accept him cancelling the paypal dispute and take the $3500 (or even a lesser amount) and move on.

In the future don't keep working for clients if they aren't paying the full amount of your invoices and invoice them frequently so they don't owe you too much at one time.

If they are getting slow to pay you can get slow to provide services. Sometimes companies need time to get their cash flow caught up so that's understandable. But try to minimize the time/money you extend during those times.

Good luck. (Move On)

In a fight the person who steps up and says "I'm going to f*k you up no matter what it costs me", is crazy and will make the other person re-think whether or not they want to confront this person. They may think about running away.

It sounds like your client is trying this with you. He's told you that he's crazy and willing to go the distance. So the question you have to ask yourself, is are you willing to signal that you are willing to go the distance no matter what? or do you want to go home?

I used the word "signal" very deliberately. You may only need to signal for a time and back it up with some actions (hopefully that require minimal time and money). Then he may change his mind and choose to pay you because you're crazy and just wants to get rid of you.

So how would you signal that you're willing to go the distance? I would tell him "I'm coming for that $17k even if it costs me more that $17k. I'm coming for your clients and your business. I'm start speaking to other contracts and we are going to bring a class action against you.

We're going to see if your clients have been impacted by your business practise and see if they want to join the lawsuit. Our lawyers will be in with your clients and employees...blablabla"

Tell what you are going to do next then do it. Hold a little back at every stage i.e. don't tell him just yet that you've spoken to other contracts. Keep that up your sleeve for later.

There are often such problems with contract work. My attorney explained to me that if the developer does not sign over the rights of the code developed it could be subject to license fees. If you seek an attorney for this they will say something like pay this invoice or pay a license fee for the code. Once they pay, you will need to sign over all rights to the code. There are attorneys that work with developers on these type of subjects as everyone I know has issues on both sides of contract work.

I'd suggest putting it down as a learning experience and moving on. People will rip you off from time to time. Unless you have a good chance at a quick, profitable, resolution I'd suggest getting on with your life.

I've been ripped off for amounts in the tens of thousands of dollars on 3 occasions. I was pretty angry each time, but the only time I pursued it (and got my money) was the case where the counter-party was a large firm with plenty of sensible lawyers. Trying to get money back from individuals or small organisations where people have hurt feelings is an enormous hassle.

You developed all the SW? You have access to the clients? Can you replicate the business?

Also. PayPal is not a company to trust when you are on the receiving end at least. Learnt that the hard way.

> "Can I also be sued for threatening him with reaching out to his customer base and buyers."

Since you didn't actually talk to his customers or buyers, I don't think there would be any damages that he could sue you for.

However, threatening to harm someone if they don't pay you sounds like it could be extortion, so if he has proof that you did that (like an e-mail), he might be able to press criminal charges against you.

You really need to talk to a lawyer.

Harm? Physically? I did not do so. He was threatening me...

I will go see a lawyer. Thank you.

You should talk to a few lawyers at different law firms and get a free consultation. You should get a sense of a few approaches, the likelihood that you'll see some money, etc. Think of it almost like planning poker in agile where you're trying to find realistic estimates.

> Harm? Physically? I did not do so.

Financial harm (encouraging his customers to leave his business). Extortion doesn't require physical harm. For example, blackmail is a type of extortion that threatens the release of information that would be harmful to the victim if the perpetrator isn't paid.

If he threatened you physically, you might want to inform the police.

Involving the police could end up being a very costly decision if he also committed a crime. That's why he really needs to see a lawyer before he talks to this guy again or makes any more public statements about what happened. (The comments he made here admitting to threatening the non-payer's business interests can be connected to his real identity through all the information in his profile. All you'd need is a subpoena for domain registration or ISP records.)

A lawyer, if given all the above information, would be able to tell him whether it would be better for him to fight or just walk away (and also give him advice on how to better handle this kind of situation in the future).

This is why lawyers work on a retainer. I would adopt a similar practice in the future. It has always eliminated the troublesome clients.

You can get a lawyer and send a letter to him and the investors if your lawyer advises.

completely wrong place to ask. just hire a lawyer. for $500 - $1500 you can get 2 actually valid and actually useful legal opinions.

if you just wanted to vent and hear some jabber until you get answers that confirm your inner thoughts, ok then you’ve come to the right place.

IANAL and this is not legal advice. This is an opinion and if you are really serious about this, you should really be talking to an attorney, an IRS Enrolled Agent AND a collection agency instead of a bunch of people who know more about software than what a Civil Code is.

First, SORRY to see this happen to you, but in my two decades of dealings, this is nothing new, infact pretty mild, so if I were you, I would chalk this up as a learning experience.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Stop extending credit to your clients.

  You are in the software business. What were you doing extending a NET30 to your customers? Sign up with a invoice agency and let them do what they do best and you focus on what you do best.
  Hate paying 5% of your receivables as fees? How does it feel paying 150% of your receivables as fees now?

2. f#k Paypal.

  I only use Paypal to pay when Chase Freedom gives me 5% cashback for using Paypal or Paypal sends me a coupon because I have not used them in a while. I NEVER receive money over Paypal unless it's a really close friend.
  Karma just got you buddy for supporting a f#ked up company that tries to be a bank but is not competent enough to be one. Stop using Paypal unless you use it to loan money to friends you won't mind never recovering from.
  f#k Paypal.

3. You will not do business with this client ever.

  You will, while working with an attorney AND a collection agency be advised to report the delinquent amount over to all the credit reporting agencies.
  You will also have to notify the IRS for not only your lost income but also their income (the amount they did not pay you).
  They owe the IRS taxes on the "discount".

4. > I have 2 others willing to follow through with legal action

  That's bullsh*t.

  They have done nothing so far and will do nothing. It's all just hot air. I have been screwed over so many times by clients and their "ex" consultants who wanted to "follow through with legal action".
  Those "ex" consultants became "current" consultants as soon as they got paid.
  Don't want to trust a stranger on the internet? Good, you're learning fast. Also, Try this: "Hey pissed off ex consultants. I have this fascinating lawyer that will represent us for $2000/pop. Flat fee, great deal. When do you guys wire me the $1000 upfront and $1000 after our initial meeting?".
  Tell us how this goes.

5. > Can I also be sued for threatening him with reaching out to his customer base and buyers.

  You can be sued for farting in my general direction.

  Will the judge throw the case out? Depends on what you have.
  Will the judge hold you in contempt if you continued to stay and argued there is merit? Report back and let us know.

6. > I didn't take the 3500, as I would like to see at least 9k. But he isn't willing to reach to that.

  That's not how it works if you have a half decent contract.

  A half decent contract will mention that any amounts paid will apply to the balance on the account but will not be considered a full and final payment unless the terms of the contract are adhered to.

  You have this in your contract, don't you?

So the three questions are:

A. What the hell was your billing rate? I charge $350/hr in general. All these tirekicking f#kers say Thank you and get the hell out of my way. They go and target the poor clueless souls that charge $50/hr (aka those who have no clue about the overhead of running a sustainable business)

  My clients are happy to pay me this rate because they know I work with clients who let me live a happy, sustainable life allowing me to focus on high quality work instead of bullshit. They want their business to run smoothly and unless I deliver, that won't happen.

B. Was this a "startup" thing? In that case, Sweat equity only applies to founders. It only rarely works for anyone else unless the company becomes mega successful. If you want to learn how to gamble, do it right and learn about Slicing Pie models. No? They wont follow a Slicing Pie model? OK, then they need to pay cash. Now. Today

C. What's your and your "client's" jurisdiction? How much of your gross income does this "client" account for?

PS: ANY attorney will represent you if you have a case and pay them money.

In my experience, you will get back your $10k back and more if you create a VLOG of this from start to finish than you will from your "client". Just make sure to call them, say, "GongBanger" instead of their real name in your vlogs. Sign me up.

Great response - since OP has no written contract seems like they are stuffed though?

No, if it's your money - not having a contract does not matter.

Imagine if a thief robbed your store, not having a contract with thief does not stop you from recovering theft amount from the thief.

thank you for this advice.

sounds like a perfect opportunity to release some open source software