Most importantly, you don't have to tip in the UK. It's appreciated but literally no one minds if you don't.

I've never had a meal out in the UK (with different people, family, work, etc) where a tip wasn't left, unless possibly when service was really bad.

Sure, and I leave tips the vast majority of the time too - but I've had situations where I had no cash on me, the card machine didn't accept a tip, so I just left without feeling bad about it, it's not a big deal.

Not to you I guess. The server has only a very fixed opportunity to get tipped in a shift. To miss out on one is actually significant. Not to mention depressing.

And what am I supposed to do about it?

My point is - in US not tipping felt like being an absolute asshole, to a point where people would be upset - they grew up in a culture that values money above all else and not being tipped is I don't know, an equivalent of being spat in the face? In UK I've never felt that way. I've had perfectly good meals that I didn't tip on, just like I did in France, Spain or Germany and it never felt like the server expected a tip. They might be a bit disappointed that they didn't get one, but that's their problem. I'm disappointed about a lot of things but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to them.

The reaction in the US isn't based upon some cultural obsession with money. Wait staff in the US is paid differently than in other countries. Wait staff in the US is largely paid the minimum hourly rate for tipped employees which is $2.13 an hour. It is expected that the majority of their income will be earned through tips.

There are many states where tipped employees earn the same minimum wage as non-tipped employees. The social expectation remains the same in those places.

For reference: https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

Employers are supposed to make up the difference if the total with tips falls below minimum wage, but I don't think enforcement on that is very strict.

It still doesn't explain why the tip has to be a percentage. Makes no sense.

So its not up to you to enter a restaurant prepared to pay for the meal? You can do lots about it; in fact nobody else but you can do anything about it.

I'd rant about "this generation is so entitled" but hey that post says it all.

>>So its not up to you to enter a restaurant prepared to pay for the meal?

I have paid for the meal. At the end of my visit I was given a receipt and paid the indicated price - what else do you want? If the server is disappointed they didn't get a tip, then I think I know who is entitled in this relationship, and I have a very strong suspicion it's not me.

>> in fact nobody else but you can do anything about it

I pay my employees a good wage - so why can't the restaurant owner do the same? It's not up to me to make sure that a waiter is satisfied with their job - it's their employers problem, just like I have to take care of my own employees.

>>The restaurant owner in America does not pay a good wage, because tipping is a thing and the market adjusted.

The market would adjust itself overnight if everyone stopped tipping, and I'm sure even you can see that.

On my end, what can I do to stop this country becoming more like America in terms of tipping? Well, not tip of course, in which case it won't become expected and necessary to support shitty business practices. Amazon has "suggested" tipping for drivers now. Uber suggests tips. Deliveroo expects tips. It is imperative that if you live in UK you select ZERO on all of these. If you enter any value above zero you are sending a clear signal to Amazon etc that they can pay their drivers shitty wages because the customer is willing to subsidise them. Is an Uber driver going to feel sad they got zero tips that day? You bet they will - and I still couldn't care any less, their personal job satisfaction should not be subsidised by me.

But I've gotten away from my original point - yes, I recognize that in US the market is adjusted for tipping. But my original comment wasn't about US - it was about UK, where - to my relief - tipping isn't a requirement. Fortunately I can still pay only as much as the bill says and not feel bad about it in the slightest, because I know the person serving my table does not rely on my tips to survive. And like I said above - I do tip when the service is good at restaurants. I just don't want it to become a norm like in the US of A.

The point is that in the US, the real price is not advertized, and in the UK tipping is not as obligatory and is therefore not a required part of preparing to pay for the meal. Case in point: I bought a sandwich at Denver airport, that was label roughly $7. I handed them my card and was asked to sign a receipt that added sales tax from multiple government jurisdictions, an airport service fee, and suggested the amount for a 21% tip that it noted in some situations would be mandatory for me to pay. I left no tip but still paid $11 for that sandwich and was not served in any way except for the girl who showed me to where to swipe my own card and handed me the receipt.

In Europe servers are paid more than the equivalent of $2 an hour because the cost of their pay is already factored into the price. I still tip for great service, but increasingly I cannot in any way begin most transactions in the US without hidden fees springing up the whole way.

How do you even know the person you're replying to is of a different generation?

I'm no millennial, but I've frequently not been able to leave a tip while paying for dinner in the UK because I've paid by card and had literally no cash on me. I've felt bad about not leaving a tip for good service, but I know that the servers will at lease make minimum wage before tips, unlike in the US. The whole point of this entire thread of discussion is about how people are switching to card-only payments in some areas and different/changing cultural norms, and while there could have been an interesting discussion about how this impacts other cultural norms like tipping, you instead just call someone an asshole like Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud.

The sub-topic was the idea that it 'wasn't my fault' that tipping got inconvenient and so they didn't do it. Lets not rewrite what was just posted. Rewriting a situation to feel better about oneself is symptomatic of the issue here.

Everybody on HN is of a different generation than me. Not rocket science.

I have family who work in food service in the UK. Tips are NOT expected, nor is significant/depressing to miss one. It's common, but certainly not mandatory or "victimizing the least powerful person in the relationship".

You don't have to tip in the US either. Just don't expect the servers to be very nice on return visits.

Most places in the UK now have an "optional" service fee of 12% on the bill.

This is much more common in London than in the rest of the country. Thankfully.

Agreed, very much a London thing. Given it's optional at least you can tell them (or a manager) in the UK to take off if service is crap. In Asia, in places where the service charge is added then the service charge is rarely if ever removed, you can be screaming blue at them due to a chain inexcusable lazy fuck ups and they still wont budge on the service charge - loss of face, lack staff empowerment, 'till say no' etc...

The addition of sales tax and service charge is more a frustration than tipping to me, tis why I hate restaurants in Asia that are ++ (10% SC + 7% tax). I'd like to ask them a) under what circumstances do I not have to pay the tax? b) if service is crap are you going to remove the service charge, the answer basically point to everyone pays it. I prefer wysiwyg pricing and tipping for the real extra mile. Also note service charge is rarely distributed fairly to staff that are serving you.

Definitely something I've noticed more in London, though I sometimes see "Suggested gratuity: <amount/percentage>" outside of London (generally not included in the price by default). Incidentally, suggesting a tip (especially including it in the amount by default) makes me much less likely to want to pay one.

> you have be a shameless mingebag to collect the 3gbp change

This doesn't make sense in a society (like the US) where many (most?) people pay for dining out with a credit card.

When paying by card you can still stick a few pounds or dollars in the sleeve. Even when CC receipts had the open Tip: ____ line most times I would zero it and leave a cash tip when a tip was in order, off the books, not % skimming to cover merchant fees etc..

That's true (and an admirable practice for the reasons you specify), but at that point it's no longer a matter of "here's a $50, keep the change".

I and many people I know carry cash infrequently because of the ubiquity of credit card acceptance.

Anyway, none of this is to disagree with you, but just to point out that your example might be less common in the U.S. than you think.

> When paying by card you can still stick a few pounds or dollars in the sleeve.

That would seem cheesy af to me. Like "Here have some money you poor thing!"

Isn't that what a tip is?

What I have been told is that they want the tips in cash to not leave a trail for tax authorities to see. If they get the tip in cash they don't report it as income, if the tip is added to the card it get registered as tip and tax have to be paid. So basically tip is not only a way to get around paying the workers a livable salary but also a way to avoid taxes

Its mainly to avoid the employer keeping the tip for them selves

Eh - you only have to read forums to realize that it's a lot more to do with the taxes.

I have heard more BS excuses from servers on forums: "The government demands we pay tax on these tips, even when we don't get them". No, the government recognizes you're in a cash-heavy industry, and would like you to document things. If you do, you pay tax on the tips you get, not the default amount. Quick way to get banned from said forums? Ask if they are sure to supply documentation when they get tips above and beyond that amount to the IRS.

They also like to claim that "20% is cheap, you should be aiming for 25%"... eh.

I always pay by card and where I live you can't add a tip so I never tip.