Montana, a land of National parks, natural beauty, fast internet, and a low cost of living has a number of high tech jobs open. Full disclosure, I own an internet company here and want more tech savvy people in the area ;)
As someone that took a tech job in a (relatively) rural area, I can say there are some amazing perks, but also huge risks. Tech jobs pay roughly the same in rural areas as they do in larger cities, but housing costs are low enough that you can get a really nice house and still afford to put money in savings.
The biggest downside is a lack of employment options. When the company had a huge layoff I started looking around for other jobs in the area and realized there weren't any.
I ended up taking a great job 1000 miles away in a major city. That's when I realized another downside to smaller markets - it's really hard to sell a house and house values don't change. Even though we bought a foreclosed house in 2007, the value in 2014 was unchanged. After looking at what we had spend on improvements and upkeep we would've been far better off renting a house and putting more money into savings.
I agree that's a huge issue which is only slowly getting better. It's also rather normal for people to travel/work remote/move between the top cities. From Helena I drive to Missoula or Bozeman at least once a month to see friends / socialize.
Regarding job movement, MT actually has a number of high tech companies per city, but it's a much smaller handful. Using Helena as an example (valley population ~80k), we have: Northrup Grumman, the State Agencies, SoFi, TSI&T, Boeing, Tempest (they work on KOA.com), Blue Cross Blue Shield, etc. Layoffs are not as usual here as we have a significant talent shortage. For instance I believe SoFi has ~200 devs in Helena when they would like 400 devs -- hiring being the biggest barrier.
In Bozeman, I've done the tour of the major (and more than a couple of minor) companies, and there are still prospects available to me.
Throw in decent internet and companies which hire remotely, and you're in good shape.
That said, Bozeman is currently experiencing a housing bubble that doesn't seem to want to break (we attribute it to the older Californians who are trying to avoid taxes on the houses they sold there). Nothing like SF, but 2x-3x the rest of Montana.
In 1999 I bailed out of the valley and moved to Livingston, MT. I had to build my own ISP to get connectivity to my house but otherwise it's been a success. Interesting to watch how the tech "scene" has changed over that time. I used to know all the developers in this half of the state personally!
One of those blog posts that has never been written...
Briefly, I had to deploy what is now a pretty standard WISP setup but back then almost nobody was doing that so I had to learn everything from scratch. I'm an EE by birth so it wasn't that hard, and I've worked in the networking/network application development sphere most of my career so that part wasn't too hard either. Being your own ISP is basically just a problem solved only by the application of a subtle combination of time and money.
We exited the ISP market a couple of years ago though since it had turned into a deep money pit with the rise of Netflix. Today the network is still in place but only serves my home, fed by a traditional residential copper coax connection to our office building in town.
Let's move the convo over to n.boskovic at gmail, shall we? I have a couple questions I'd like to ask that are pretty specific. Thank you for your time!
Have you considered doing something more organized than a random comment on HN?
I would very much like to see real solutions to some of the problems the US is experiencing wrt concentration of "good" jobs in a few places and them going utterly to hell because of it. I keep kicking around ideas and starting various small websites that often go nowhere. But, I think the internet is a potential means to start giving pushback against this trend and start creating a healthier fabric than we have currently.
Sigh. I am really really bad at this. I ask a question. The reply is often defensive. Conversation fails to happen, often coming to a screeching halt.
I am not trying to dump a project in your lap. I really appreciated your comment. It makes me want to do something with the info.
Before my life was derailed, I was studying to become an urban planner, but was really more interested in regional planning. I have a sincere interest in trying to find real solutions that are lightweight and use existing resources. I am also a recent California escapee.
If you are interested in seeing something more done with this info at some point, please drop me a line. I don't know where to go with it at this point in time, but having a contact on the ground that could feed me info to help jump start something might be useful.
Thank you for making the comment and answering questions here.
You mentioned you are bad at this, just a little unsolicited help - I am not the guy you responded to but even initially got my back up reading that. I was thinking jeez this guy puts his hand out to help, agrees to meet one other local dev, comments how he knows half of them and basically gets accused of laziness / slacktivism!
It’s clear you didn’t mean that now, tone from text is really hard to judge and people default to assuming the worst, even subconsciously so perhaps leading with your clarification in the second post or somtheing lkke it may increase your conversion to conversation rate!
Sorry if this insults you, it is not meant to.
Also, I’m putting words into the mouth of the OP of this sub thread too which are more than likely wrong.
Well, how can I say that better? How would you inquire if someone is interested in doing something more with the information and willing to discuss it with you? You know, without sounding like a leech imposing on their time with your half baked idea.
I have run multiple websites for years, but I can't figure out how to develop them more effectively. I had a Fortune 500 job. I have a Certificate in GIS. Etc. But, I can't get anyone to take me seriously. It makes me want to spit nails.
Which is probably the wrong way to say all of that too. I appreciate you chiming in here, but what can I do? Knowing what not to do isn't enough.
For another anecdotal perspective, I don't read your initial inquiry or its response as particularly problematic. I can understand why you might feel disappointed or frustrated. I don't read their short response as defensive, but rather as a more genuine expression that they're not interested in doing much more than what they've already done, rather than them not taking you seriously. One might misread your opening question in a negative way (Have you considered…? read as Why haven't you considered…?), but I don't think 'client4 did. I think you expressed yourself clearly and offhand I can't think of any way I would have written it differently.
When someone doesn't feel the same passion that I do about a particular issue or topic, I can get frustrated, too. I have to consciously remind myself that people prioritize things differently. I'd love to be able to infect people with the same level of commitment I feel, but there's no sure-fire way of doing that in my experience. Edit to add: I do think there are ways to become more effective (e.g., Dale Carnegie's methods), and they take practice. I know that's little consolation when things don't seem to be going your way.
This is a long way of saying I think this is only an example of mismatched levels of interest in action, no fault on any side.
As an aside, I really appreciate your self-reflection!
I appreciate your comment. I mean that sincerely. But, here is the rut I can't find any way out of that I tried to avoid commenting on because it seems like a great way to put out the fire with gasoline, but I am a woman. So when I came to Hacker News, if men talked to me at all, I either got shitty condescending pat on the head encouragement ("You should do a website on X topic" by someone who obviously had not looked at my profile to see the link to the website on X topic listed in my profile) or people were clearly talking to me because "Oh my god. It's a Girl!!!!" and they are excited as hell to be talking to a Girl! And not really interested in discussing anything useful with me. Or ..there is probably some other complaint in there. I am having a sucktastic week and whatever.
But, it does not matter what I do, I cannot get serious traction with anything I do, much less turn it into serious money.
I was homeless for nearly 6 years until very recently. I got accused of "panhandling the internet" (Not on HN -- only metafilter would stoop so low) and my constant requests for help in developing an online income were largely ignored. And It does not matter how I ask, how I work on that. It seems to only get very marginally better, extremely slowly. At the rate I am going, I will be 100 years old before I have a middle class lifestyle again.
And I'm broke as hell today and I need more income. This is a serious problem for me. I've been patient. I've worked hard. I've done everything I know how to do. It is never enough.
What is the goddamn secret handshake for being let into the proverbial old boys club so I can be allowed to earn more than a pittance?
/totally ineffectual rant that will either be completely ignored, downvoted to hell or pissed on for some reason, no doubt. But I am at wit's end. So have at it. It won't make my broke ass life any worse.
Sorry you're having a sucktastic week. As you know there's little I personally can do in an HN comment to make that better. I also know you think deeply about a lot of things, so I'm quite certain there's little I can say that you haven't thought of or come across before.
One concrete thing I'm doing that helps me is find someone to meet with on a regular basis to talk about progress on things we individually find important, things we want to work on. We use this to hold each other accountable for progress in these areas and to bounce ideas off each other. I know there are groups out there where people support each other in their entrepreneurial endeavors (I think I've heard these referred to as "Masterminds" groups); that's not what I'm doing, but the common thread is people (or just two people, in my case) getting together to get feedback and support on their personal goals.
I know how frustrating it can be when you feel stuck. (There are stronger words, but I'm purposefully not using them). I hope things get better for you and that you can find a way to feel that you're making progress.
Hillmap is pretty sweet. Totally nerding out about it. Geospatial stuff like this is what I really enjoy. What are you looking to do with it in the future?
Mostly I plan to use it to ski and climb all over Montana!
Its actually a few years old and I was thinking of trying to make it more of a money maker at one point but other interests have proven more profitable so I'm not sure I'll ever really push for it to become a true business.
I and many of my friends do get a ton of pleasure out of trips planed with it which is its own reward.
Might be hard to really monetize anyways, its really nice that you keep it available for people to use. If you don't plan on making more money from it, you could always open source it, and let others contribute too for fun.
Oh yeah! Funny story -- when he was first starting they had to FedEx their videos to a friend because upload speeds were so bad. That, and a bunch of other stories, is what inspired me to start an ISP (and party like it's 1999).
Thanks for the list, MT has been a place I have admired for a while now. Just had not thought of being able to actually support myself there. I am pretty niche as far as my interests go (Geospatial Development) and there aren't a whole lot of options around. OnXMaps is quite interesting though, exactly up my alley. Didn't know about them before.
I'm late to the party, but if anyone here is interested in opportunities in Missoula, I'm happy to talk. I work at Submittable (YC S12) and we'll be hiring more engineers in 2018.
I have been back in Missoula since 2001, and worked a number of different tech jobs here from local government to remote to public companies and startups.
The tech scene has grown a ton here over the last 15 years. There are good opportunities. The biggest hurdle I've seen is being able to find good work for your SO.
It isn't Portland or Seattle or San Francisco but it isn't as bad as you might expect (based on what I hear from LGBT friends and my observations). There's a tradition of leaving people to do their thing. We have a democrat governor. Probably best to keep to the left half of the state though. The college towns and tech firms are in the western half.
Usually if you don't be a dick (if you have one or not) nobody cares. Missoula would be the best town if you're looking for an inclusive city culturally. Our state pride is pretty big.
https://www.bigskypride.com
I'm outside of Missoula. There are a few trans people on the reddit and I've heard adds for clinics offering care on the radio.
Generally Montanas seem to have a "you mind my business and I'll mind mine" attitude. So while there is a large right wing component they seem to be mobilized more by gun rights and logging/mining jobs then being anti gay/trans.
Our rural county did stop taking federal money for the women's health clinic as a tea party grand stand which is unfortunate.
Counterpoint: it is a very conservative state, and one of their elected representatives choke-slammed a Guardian journalist who was trying to ask him questions, and he still got elected.
Well...the guy in question is fairly widely disliked in the state (I've met him a few times -- seemed ok but he believes the earth is 4k years old which is .... just weird). He was elected I think because a) many people vote Republican regardless (see Trump) and b) mail in votes had already been counted at the time and this is a state with a high proportion of mail in ballots. I really wouldn't take his actions as any example of the vibe in the state. He isn't from Montana fwiw. If you want an example of bad political vibe from Montana you'd be more on the mark with Zinke.
This should be considered for sure. Texas anything was removed from my family's potential places list because of its hostility to women; my wife said in no uncertain terms that we would never be moving there.
Social Finanace (SoFi) | Helena, MT
Oracle | Bozeman, MT
OnXMaps | Missoula, MT
Zaneray Group | Whitefish, MT
Submittable | Missoula, MT
Applied Materials | Kalispell, MT