It's a check/balance against state power, i.e. the judicial system. Many countries have used this method for centuries. It's not ridiculous because the idea is that (the diverse selection of) your peers are equal to you in most ways, so are able to fairly judge you. A judge still has a lot of power and usually ultimately the decision goes to them as far as sentencing etc.
Right. But thing is, they are not actually equal on specialised matters? I understand that it works when you're dealing with things like murder. That can be relatively clear.
But how about hacking? Securities fraud? Money laundering? Tax fraud? These are all highly specialised issues that the average person knows nothing about. No average person, unless they have an interest in it, will be able to make a good call on such a case.
There is a significant role for judges in trials as well, especially on complex technical issues. It's up to the judge to decide all "matters of law", for example which conduct would (if it happened) violate a law and which wouldn't. A judge can even throw out the indictment entirely, finding a defendant innocent as a matter of law, if they determine that the conduct alleged isn't actually a violation of any laws, even if it did happen. In complex fraud cases indictments being thrown out (or overturned on appeal) by judges isn't all that uncommon either.
Where it goes to a jury is when there's a dispute of fact rather than law: the judge has determined that whether the defendant violated the law or not depends on a fact disputed between the prosecution and the defense (e.g. whether the defendant actually did or didn't do something, or what the defendant's intent was). The jury then decides whether the facts support conviction, although even then they're typically guided by very specific instructions from the judge about what they would have to find in order to convict.
Just some clarification for those readers not in the U.S.. You as the defendant do not have to select have your case tried by a jury. You can select to have a bench trial instead. There is a presumption of innocence for the defendant, so the prosecutor has to show "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the defendant committed the crime in question. Juries find defendants not guilty more often then judges do. So if you want a society that better reflects the maxim, "better 10 guilty men go free, than 1 innocent man go to prison", then juries are empirically better.
Even if you ask for a bench trial, the state can request a jury trial on your behalf since the presumption in law is that juries are objectively better.
These things can be (and are) explained. Trials that contain complex technical violations tend to take longer, sure. Judges, expert witnesses, lawyers all spend a huge amount of time learning about/explaining these issues. It's especially incumbent upon the prosecutor to explain complicated issues -- if the jury can't understand someone's guilt, they are less likely to consider someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Which is very, very good: it sets the bar higher for conviction, and it encourages the state to, if it wants to convict, make simpler clearer laws. Complex morasses of incomprehensible laws are not necessary and only serve the interests of those who can pay to create or avoid them.
Also, none of these subjects are so difficult and complicated ordinary people cannot understand them. I've never heard of a trial requiring any real deep knowledge, like requiring jurors to have a serious understanding algebraic geometry or quantum mechanics or phenomenology. Hacking can be explained to ordinary people. People are not dumb. People do their own taxes and understand taxes. Trained professionals are not elite superheroes who are the only ones who can understand the world well enough to understand the difference between right and wrong. Untrained people can't do a professional's job, but they can definitely (with some help and background) tell when a professional has committed a crime. This case is easily understandable. I'm not a securities expert but I can make a fine assessment here just from reading an article, even without hours and hours of doing nothing but learning about the specific case and law (which is what jurors get); we all know what fraud is.
Honestly, aren't you underestimating your own intelligence?
Plenty of things can be simplified for non professionals, but the nuance of certain topics is then often lost. A single word in a written law can matter a lot.
No disrespect to anyone, but can an average career teacher understand the nuances of securities law? Can (s)he understand the actual difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion? Some can, absolutely. Others definitely can't and are operating way out of their league.
Lawyers and prosecutors are great at creating stories, but isn't what matters or not whether the law has been broken?
As an example; I had a tax issue (different interpretation of a certain law) but retained an amazing tax lawyer. He was _great_. The way they juggle the story around without lying, yet drawing the line very close, is amazing. Based on personal experience, I just don't think it can work without subject experts.
Amazing charismatic lawyers (or prosecutors) will be able to bend an outcome, and that is just not right.
>No disrespect to anyone, but can an average career teacher understand the nuances of securities law?
Yes they can, that's exactly the position I outlined. After a week of doing nothing but learning about securities law every teacher I've met is capable of this no problem. Teachers are perhaps a bad example here though, they are highly educated (many have masters' degrees, most have bachelors) and interested in learning. But to make your argument stronger, take a minimum wage fast food worker with a GED, yes I think they are capable as well.
>Lawyers and prosecutors are great at creating stories, but isn't what matters or not whether the law has been broken?
Kind of. In fact in the US legal system this is not all that matters, because the law is often vague and abstract and sometimes obviously morally wrong. The purpose of the jury is exactly this, it's a check on a cold soulless system destroying lives robotically; not only must a law be broken, but you also have to convince a group of fairly normal human beings that what you've done is horrible enough you deserve to be punished for it before you are punished.
>Amazing charismatic lawyers (or prosecutors) will be able to bend an outcome, and that is just not right.
I agree with you here, and this essentially means the rich get away with things the poor are punished for. This will always happen, will it not? People who are able to present a more convincing argument in their defense are less likely to be convicted in any legal system? I think things can be done to mitigate this, yes, and they start with a simpler criminal code (fewer crimes) and more equal access to legal talent, like better funded public defenders.
Yeah, but judges are no better at interpreting the law many times. If you don't believe me, go read some of the decisions by americas Supreme Court. For example they said a man was black therefore no a man therefor he had no right to sue in court, which basically means no rights at all. How they missed the part about due process I don't know.
The judge/jury distinction is basically orthogonal. Judges who hear a case are not necessarily experts. And by the same token, one could easily imagine a system where a jury had to be composed of experts in the field. I'm not convinced that would be a good thing to do, though.
You can always request a bench trial (which must be approved by the prosecutor), and you probably should for any sufficiently complex matter, where bench trials have a 55% acquittal rate vs 80-something % for jury trials (if someone wants a source, I'll try to find it; these figures came from a study). Jury trials work when there are emotional and subjective aspects, especially around intent. The jury in Shkreli returned to the judge for a formal definition of fraudulent intent, and then he was not convicted on wire fraud, meaning that they didn't find for specific intent. If the jury was not properly instructed on the elements of the crime and the issue was raised, it may be a reversible error and I'm anxious to see how the appeal is argued.
Sure, the point is there is no perfect system. This is just the best we've been able to come up with over a few millennia, and no we don't execute wonderfully and certainly our voting/jury population is full of interesting ideals, but it's what we have and it's _mostly_ worked over time. I'm not sure where you are but I'm curious to know of other systems considered "better"
I’m based in Belgium. Definitely not perfect, but different countries use different systems. In general, juries are only used when dealing with murder cases. All other issues are ruled upon directly by judges, who makes a direct interpretation of the law. If you’re dealing with a tax case, you will generally be assigned a judge somewhat familiar with tax law. Same if you’re dealing with a contract or a commercial issue, etc.
One can expect any judge to be an individual with above average intellectual ability.
