I agree with this. You only need to see what happens when public order breaks down during riots and natural disasters. There are a hell of a lot of people out there who go wild when they don't anticipate punishment.

You keep saying that prison deters public order offences. It clearly doesn't. I'm curious why you think it does?

In places where there is no civil authority, they have what resembles post-apocalyptic landscapes. We've not descended into that. So yes, enforcing public order has an effect.

(And what about prison? Where did that come from?_

How can you say it clearly doesn't? Sure it doesn't deter ALL but none?

Of course, most people are socialised not to even consider breaking most laws, but that only happens because they live in a lawful society. When you see people around you breaking the rules, you feel much less obliged to keep them.

But I'm not calling for a lawless society. You can have rule of law with minimal prison use.

I'm not sure why people are thinking that I'm calling for an end to law.

I have. Of course I have my own personal code, as most every man does, but that does not always align with the law, and so where they conflict, rational calculations are made. I like to think that my code is good enough that in a society of just Mes we could get on well enough in anarchy, but there will never be a society of just Mes, there are lots of differing codes out there and the law helps ease tensions between them, plus my code certainly has flaws even if I can't change or see them yet.

I have chosen not to speed on a road that I know is heavily patrolled because I don't want the speeding ticket.

It only takes one, for public order to dissolve.

Where is your evidence that prison doesn't deter petty crimes, burglary, rape, etc.?

You make a good point, but I rather think the burden of evidence that prison is a deterrent rests on the people who recommend it, seeing as prison is a pretty significant interference with someone's human rights.

I should say that I have no problem of prison for repeat violent criminals. Some people say that prison stops those people committing crime while they're in prison, but it doesn't even do that. Look at the rates of violent crime happening in US prisons (which I accept are unusual) to see evidence of that. There's not much evidence that a stay in prison stops a person from re-offending; it seems that there's a bunch of "psycho-social" stuff (housing, debt management, employment, education, drug and alcohol treatment) that would be more effective at stopping re-offending. (Or preventing crime).

And do we really want to deprive someone of their liberty in prison for "petty crime"? I'm not sure what you mean about petty crime.