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How does Waymo get subsidies? If I ride in Waymo, does that mean I get subsidies?

> by simple virtue of being a car

State and local governments spend a truly obscene amount of money building and repairing roads, and set aside a nauseating amount of publicly owned land to serve as roads, street parking, and parking lots. Those of us who don't frequently drive get some benefit from the roads, sure, because of the efficiencies of shops needing deliveries and whatnot, but not anything close to proportional to what drivers get out of it. And we accept this as the default way that things should be, whereas we assume that public transit needs to "pay for itself".


Road wear and tear increases as the fourth power of axle load. Are you counting the spending on bus stops, bus parking, dedicated bus lanes, and more on the other side of the ledger?

Buses in my city did so much damage to the asphalt at bus stops that they had to pour thousands of thick concrete pads that wouldn't rut.

In FY25, according to their budget [1], TriMet - the Portland public transit authority - spent $19M on bus services.

In that same budget, PDOT spent $56M on streets, signs and streetlights, before you even consider the $242M spent on "asset management" - which appears to generally be capital improvements; i.e., rebuilding roads [2, page 509].

I don't care what fraction of that wear and tear is due to buses, it's not remotely close. And in any case, by the same fourth-power law, private 18-wheelers do astronomically more damage than buses.

And yes, PDOT makes revenue back from some of those things, so it's not all straight from the city general fund, but it doesn't matter in any practical way. They don't have revenues broken down as far as I'd like on that budget - there's one big $89M line item for "charges for services", which appears to include parking meters as well as tram fare - but the vast majority of their budget still comes from taxes plus "intergovernmental" sources (aka state and federal money, aka taxes).

[1] https://www.gpmetro.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/2025-Oper... [2] https://www.portland.gov/budget/documents/fy-2025-26-city-po...


Your first link is for the bus budget in Portland, Maine. The system cost for busses in Portland, Oregon in 2025 was $453 million.[1]

1. https://trimet.org/about/pdf/trimetridership.pdf


Yes. Roads are subsidized; the true cost of building and maintaining roads comes from general funds, not just from vehicle registrations and gas taxes (which of course Waymo doesn’t pay, being righteously electric).

So you pay Waymo, they pay a few hundred dollars a year per car in registration, and you benefit from billions of dollars a year in highway funds from both state and federal sources.


Good point about electric. Maybe a tax on tires would be more fair, but that would lead to some dangerous behavior.

Waymo and I pay a lot in state and federal taxes. Shouldn't that work out that we're paying for a shared resource we use even if the proportional accounting is not exact?


Seems like a bargain by comparison! Chicago is about to spend $1 billion/mile to extend an above-ground train line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Line_Extension

The USA is riding on 100 years of the benefits of scale and economic investment. If the USA was investing $150B a year into building passenger rail, we would not be paying $1B/mile for "new" and "trailblazing" rail projects. If we had to build much of the highway infra we built 75 years ago, but do it now, we'd be paying similar $1B/mile prices for the highways.

The best thing about rail in the US is we'll have a lot of premium land for bike paths and AV lanes when the rail gets decommissioned.

Indeed, the root of many water problems is people wanting to live in the desert.

Hard to find an unserved corridor where train makes more sense than plane or car.

US East Cost. The area is about the size of Japan with similar popilation. And there are only a few disjointed efforts.

On the East Coast they have trains that go to the front door of your house?

Didn't know that Japanese trains (or European trains) go to the door of your house

Exactly, why would the US want to copy that?

Northeast Corridor 2200 trains a day, 15 million passengers a year, 14% of intercity traffic, replacing most air travel between some of the cities.

Moving people by train in the US makes about as much sense as delivering pizzas by barge.

Because the US is soooooo exceptional, right? And yet the moment you provide actual proper train connections the lines are successful and profitable (see e.g. Northeast Corridor.

Is that profitability calculated before or after billions in federal funding?

Have you calculated profitability of vehicles after government has funded all the infrastructure for them?

It would be a great thing if Tesla somehow pulled it off, but -short of a miracle breakthrough in AGI- it is not likely.

This type of mea culpa is exceedingly rare. Credit to you for updating your opinion when presented with evidence, and publically admitting so.

> They operate vehicles without paying for the cost of the road

Everyone uses roads, and everyone pays for roads. If you buy a potato from a grocery store, part of the money paid for fuel for the delivery truck. The tax on that fuel paid for part of the road.


Hard to know. The Waymo bay area service area is 60 miles long.

https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9059119?hl=en#PHX


Everyone uses the roads. You have to reach for very obscure examples to find commerce that doesn't utilize roads. Every bit of concrete and steel to build transit was at some point transported over roads.

Or rail and ships.

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