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I want to say no. As a way of working those dbms systems were a dead end. Not every problem is database tables and having had a job replacing a dBase III system I never want to see it or its ilk again

I fully aware of the limitations of that tools (I worked professionally as Foxpro developer), that is what I said about resurrect the spirit but not the way is implemented.

The idea is to make things "relational" (with improvements) instead of fully "physical database tables" that is what tied you into a binary format.

With this, this binary format stop to begin opaque, and can be even be represented (tables and such) textually or by "standard" outputs like Msgpack.

So think that `data Customer` has decoupled the idioms, programatic interface to their specific storage. In rust terms, each `data` is `serde`, so you can change and move between how physically things are represented.

BTW this is how the relational idea was mean to be used.


80% of everything is crap anyway, no matter which tech stack. But I think something was lost, not everything is a database, but ever since Microsoft started ignored MS Access, nothing is a database. Or rather, Excel is used as a database. That can't be good either.

Oh 100% agree on Excel - it's no substitute for those dBase/Clipper/Fox systems.

Y'know what? It's probably true that niche needs filling again as long as it isn't the dBase file format. I had to deal with one system that blew the documented max file size for dBase III but for some bizarre reason, the original dBase III executable didn't care.

However, you couldn't load it with any of the ODBC drivers it would fail. Except for one obscure Sybase based driver I have forgotten the details of.

Just couldn't deal with it again I don't think.


Yeah, this is totally correct. What was great is the ability to do things like `SELECT name FROM NameOfForm` (in Foxpro, `forms` where stored in tables, so you can do sql on them), but what I say is that is the "free" query interface that is great, but if the actual thing is stored as json, csv, sqlite or whatever is orthogonal.

There is definitely a story to be told in GUI based development environments, from VisualWorks / Digitalk smalltalk to VB to Delphi. Along with the also rans (PowerBuilder, the death of Clipper and dBase systems).

GUI interfaces were going to be a massive productivity goldmine compared to green screens and TUI interfaces. Now here we are back to those again in various forms and web browsers won in the end anyway.

Was a wild ride in the 1990s when it was happening in earnest.


I recall an internal (never released) project at IBM in the late 1980s. It was a tool for creating client-server GUI apps, programming them with the REXX language. You may remember that client-server was all the rage at the time, and REXX was IBM's favorite scripting language. IIRC, the internal name of the project was "Red October", but I can't find any reference to this online.

The tools lacked the visual GUI builder of VB, but really, that's just a detail. The rest of the framework was really quite powerful, and a GUI builder could have been added. But in true IBM fashion, they had no idea how to market something that wasn't mainframe targeted, and they killed the project. There was a fair amount of acrimony on internal forums about this at the time.


You are correct. The only reference I could find to Red October is a dead link which was never archived (or has since been removed from) @ Wayback Machine Internet Archive: https://www.ibm.com/history/innovation/red-october

Otherwise, the other links point to the game, the movie and the cyberespionage malware attack.


Still have h floppies for Digitalk Smalltalk/V in my office at work.

A lot of 8 bit basics had a RENUM which would even out the line numbers and repoint all the GOTO statements.

Deliberately reuse their name in that first conversation and trust you can recall it. It takes discipline and practice I.e at the end of the day, picture the new people you met and repeat their names when you get home. That works about 80% for me

https://youtu.be/GbIimta-TJs?si=3Sm-Dgl8DtfubFSt

A period documentary about the Meridian Triumph motorcycles co op. Sad, thoughtful take on a particular bit of British manufacturing history. That the co op started with a strike, had to trade exclusively with a single customer, and that the senior workers became the managers they hated.

Due to the structure of that co op there was no way for them to access the capital they needed to redevelop their products and it ended up in private hands as a result, leaving the workers with nothing. I don’t think I would wish a co op on anybody.


Thanks I will watch it, looks interesting. But i would say there's also a million documentaries, movies, news reports, examples and more about insane, evil, stupid shit that goes on in various corporations or how organizations turn to shit when acquired by PE as well. We know for example that cigarette companies knew their products caused cancer and other health problems for decades(!) while denying it publicly, and this is the bar regulators expect today - that they will do absolutely anything including letting people die through smoking or pollution or blocking access to healthcare to make a profit. So a co-op going poorly doesn't invalidate the concept.

No doubt there is evil in the corporate world. I do think there is something in that documentary that changed my mind about a few things. It might not be representative o today since we’re talking 1970s UK but thought provoking anyway.

How ironic. Reactionary old fart mostly known for writing moralistic children’s novels wants you not to listen to moralistic crusaders. I shall take his advice.

This is a recent development.

VB6 could have you roll a GUI interface in minutes, so even trivial tasks could have a GUI.

The tools for CDE on Unices were arguably even better but CDE never really got any momentum.

That it’s tough to put together a GUI now is definitely a regression and Microsoft shooting themselves in the feet regularly over the last 25 years is squarely to blame.


This contract I took was out of town for me so I’ve been commuting 300km week on/week off. Smallish “college town” in Australia that used to provide steady IT work no longer does. I am older 50+ so I don’t know whether that is a factor.

I was using Seek.com to get jobs but it’s increasingly difficult to get past the fake jobs, the resume harvesting and the thousands of AI or overseas applications.

The only real solution seems to be referrals or recruiters.

From my perspective the job market here is brutal.


I wear them. Sometimes it’s just fun to have a blocky, overly decorated thing on your wrist. Mostly I wear one for the utility I.e I’m doing something stupid where I might get hurt or wet or both and I really need to know the time.

They’re fun and functional. Childish? I hope that’s something that will never entirely fade in me. Pretending to adult all the time is exhausting


Are you sure? What about a stand of trees whose consciousness might just run extremely slowly compared to ours?


About as sure as one can be. It's neither logically nor physically impossible, but the claim that trees are conscious is practically unfalsifiable and is not supported by any substantive evidence. It has nothing to do with "fast" or "slow," no matter how you poke or prod or slice or dice a tree, there's nothing that suggests a capacity for consciousness. I would be less surprised if my friend's dog started speaking perfect Chinese with an American accent.


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