As a French, I had previously no opinion on Tesla and I could have bought one. I saw it as a geeky, high-end stuff.
But those days I see owning a Tesla as activism (probably unconsciously). I would preferably buy any another brand rather than being flagged as an Elon-fan in my neighborhood.
Out of interest is it his role in American politics or his interference in European politics or other things that you find more annoying.
I and British. I do not really feel there is much political significance in what car you buy, but I am definitely annoyed by his attempts to influence British politics (offering a political party a huge donation if they allowed an extremist to join - they turned him down).
Well, to me, he used to represent technological ambition, impossible achievements made real. Now he represents foreign interference, social violence and neo fascism. And we, European (and especially French people), have a very very low tolerance for social violence and fascism.
As someone who lived in the sud-ouest during the yellow vests protests, "very very low tolerance for social violence" is...not my general impression of the French people.
(Low tolerance for fascism, yes, obviously. But "social violence" is pretty much what passes for entertainment on a Saturday morning)
Social violence describes the gutting of social security, healthcare systems etc to the detriment of primarily the most vulnerable. Not the fact that people protest, however violently. It's just not the right vocabulary.
It's the law of the land. Just like in "Islamic Republic of Iran" where you hail from, "it is the law of the land" of strictly secular France that students must adhere to a very strict dress code. So secularism vs theocracy. Horses for courses. Except of course the French will not shoot buckshot at the school girls violating the "dress code" and blind them.
National culture and character is not a "political" matter. It has nothing to do with "democracy". The national symbol of France is a woman leading a secular-masonic revolution with her tits hanging out, for God's sake.
I don't know if that's entirely fair. France is staunchly secular, more so than most of its European counterparts. I could be wrong, but I don't think you can wear a crucifix or other religious symbol in French schools either.
To be fair, whether you disagree with it or not, this is the spirit of the law: ostensible religious symbols are not allowed in public schools (and more generally in republican institutions). So yes, one symbol is more visible than others, and that makes it somewhat unfair, but the "visible" portion is realistic. You can't ask teachers to check under student's clothes for them.
I will agree though that France has also been very reactionary towards its Muslim population and laicity has been a convenient tool to bash them. But that doesn't invalidate the purpose of the original principle.
Are you kidding me? I moved three years ago, from the US, to France, and I am still to hear one single "god bless you", in a conversation or media, let alone the religious comments of all sorts, at work, in political speeches, among folks at home and in the neighborhood, at the daily rate I used to have to ingurgitate, in the land of the free [evangelists].
> Societies always have a taste for fascism/authoritarianism.
But so too can religious and parental belief systems, so a balance must be struck. Children belong to neither parents nor society, they are simply different guardians and stakeholders of them at different points in their lives.
I think this attitude is exactly why the birth rates are down so much. Humans are intelligent, and do things for a reason. Including having, or not having, children.
There used to be reasons for having children in the west. They were your pension, and they were the financial success of both you personally, your village, even your country.
Today such systems survive: certain factions expect to win through children, and see it both as a way to attack and an exploit "against the west" (an exploit against human rights regulations). The most egregious example of that is in Palestine. There, if you have a kid and they attack "the enemy", mostly their mother and father get money for life. The more "enemies" killed, the more money. Paid with UN money.
(note that the wikipedia article is not accurate. In the description of the fund on the PA website it does NOT say "violence against Israel". It does not even say "Violence against Israeli", although it does refer to persons. Another inaccuracy is that the fund was ended. It was not. It was renamed and the conditions changed, slightly, as discussed here:
I don't view political organization as violence, I view it as a healthy democracy - even if the country or people don't agree with the conclusions of that group of people. It is healthy that they feel comfortable expressing their wants and needs to the people with power to change it.
What Elon is doing in the US isn't organizing or demanding the system to be better; it's taking control of the system and saying he can do better.
To be clear, the french regularly engage in violence, of which the yellow vest riots are an excellent example. Damage to property and injury to persons is not “political organization”, it is definitionally violence.
The French are the European experts on social violence (and I am French)...
In fact OP's comment somewhat shows the often noxious atmosphere in France. Here in the UK I see Teslas everywhere and people don't say or do anything (maybe they comment on the neighbour's new Tesla at home but they are polite in public in a very British way, and criminal damage is a serious crime...) In France I can believe that a Tesla owner may fear that their car will be vandalised or that some random people might throw insults at them in the street if Tesla is labeled the wrong way...
Edit: TBH, I wouldn't even say that there is a low tolerance for fascism because historically and to this day, economic interventionism, strong state, strong leader, political violence, tendency towards authoritarism, social conservatism have been big part of the culture. That is balanced by a tendency towards anarchism at the same time...
People who hate nazi’s are putting swastikas everywhere. It’s on the level of gluing yourself somewhere or throwing paint on works of art when protesting.
Worst part (or best) the left will take an L on their beloved cars while selling them to right.
A car needs a working supply chain to stay on the road. If no one's buying new Teslas the longevity/viability of existing ones changes from owning a popular car to owning a Fisker. Get out while the resale value is still decent.
What's factory service going to look like when new sales are down even further in Europe and the stores are struggling? I definitely wouldn't be buying from a manufacturer where that has to be a consideration which then adds to a vicious cycle for Tesla. Is Tesla going to keep stores open that aren't selling any vehicles just to provide service?
At least in the UK the license plate lets you know when the car was registered, so it's simple to tell if they bought the Tesla before Elon went off the cliff fully. I'm not going to begrudge anyone who doesn't sell their car, my judgement is reserved for the people buying them now
It's harmless, it's a 6 month window. Number plate:
XX24 - registered between 1 Mar 2024 - 31 Aug 2024
XX74 - registered between 1 Sep 2024 - 28 Feb 2025
XX25 - registered between 1 Mar 2025 - 31 Aug 2025
etc
The first two letters of a number plate identifies the location where the vehicle was registered. For example, LA – LY covers London and MA – MY covers Manchester and Merseyside. Nothing personally identifying whatsoever.
If you're truly paranoid about such things you can always buy a car registered hundreds of miles from your residence, and in practice with an abundance of second-hand (used) cars in the marketplace from across all the UK, there's always a huge variety of registration letters driving about anyway!
This has been exactly my take on the situation. 2 years ago, I followed his exploits and his companies. Now I skim articles about him at best mostly shaking my head. He went from a fellow tech bro to to tech no.
Yep, freedoms of speech, of association, and to bear arms are seriously jeapordized by nearly every ruling European regime. It’s a shame America doesn’t stand up for our values and punish Europe until she quits oppressing her citizens.
German here. He directly and openly supported the far-right AfD party in the last election by publicly asking people to vote for them, and by holding a video-call audience with the party leadership.
I don't care who votes what, but I certainly do not like when people who do not live here and do not have to deal with any consequences of an election result try do to election interference.
Not the OP, but to me it's all of it. Just the nazi salutes would be enough for me not to buy Teslas (or StarLink), but at this point I would avoid any US car.
Well. the Wikipedia article on Henry Ford has a whole section entitled "Antisemitism" which starts "Ford was a conspiracy theorist" and details Nazi links.
So, what else is new in the world of Car Company tycoons?
See, the critical thing is, Henry Ford is, thankfully, very, very dead. Ford, the modern company, is not run by a 150 year old zombie bigot. It's a very different situation.
Yes, and as the other commenter noted, 75 years after Henry Ford's death, Ford's image is mostly rehabilitated. Mostly. People who avoid Ford vehicles for this reason (rather than avoiding the vehicles on their own merits) are rare but they do exist.
Perhaps 50 or more years after the end of Tesla's iconic leader, the same rehabilitation will happen to Tesla.
The guy is probably on some sort of spectrum and not well-composed at the best of times.
It would be monumentally stupid enough, beyond other stupid musk decisions, that I am convinced people who rage about it and boycott teslas or whatever are looking for a reason to hate rather than hating because of that.
Especially when there’s such a list of other legitimate complaints about the man, his politics, his companies, his words…
There's no such thing as a "genuine Musk heart goes out", there's only random shit people do in over-excited election result moments, in front of crowds. He's saying "thank you" while slapping his heart and mentioning his heart. It's on the level of cognitive malfunction not to understand this, or else, trolling.
A self-reflected sane person would see how that gesture in that context can be misinterpreted and would have avoided it in the first place. It's not like you can't express throwing your heart out only in this way.
So I guess it was deliberate. Deliberate to look like and walk like a sieg heil, only missing the quack. Maybe a provocation, but an unnecessary one and provoking with Nazi symbolism is completely unacceptable.
Surely you're having a laugh presenting that argument?
He's literally in the middle of saying "thank you"... that's what's coming out his mouth. Nobody in history has given nazi salutes while expressing elated smiling, laughing gratitude to cheering crowds, who in turn are not saluting back or even in the same universe as your nazi claim.
It’s odd how Musk never seems to have that awkwardness cause him to make other random gestures which don’t look like Nazi salutes.
Similarly, while it’s true that the ADL tried to excuse it, that’s the opinion of their controversial new president and is far from a consensus position. Many other people, including their former national director, did describe it as a fascist salute:
Most tellingly, of course, is that extremists all over the world recognized and celebrated rated it. The whole “Roman salute” excuse started as a claim by Musk’s connection to the Italian far-right, apparently hoping that American audiences didn’t know that was a fascist symbol:
> Musk himself mocked those accusing him, threatened to sue, and has made jokes about raising his arm the wrong way. Nazi saluters don't do that, they're proud to nazi salute that's the point. But I suppose if you hate Musk you'll cling to your story even with evidence supporting the contrary.
This is simply intellectual dishonesty: while they say they’re joking, that doesn’t mean that they’re being honest when they do so, that other people are not allowed to disagree with that excuse, that the only motivation for disagreement is some personal hatred for Musk, or that personal opinions constitute incontrovertible evidence which cannot be argued.
Clearly, if you want to buy a Tesla because of "Ecology" and "the Planet", there is no reason to do so anymore as your purchase directly funds the exact opposite of what you want to achieve. Same with superchargers.
Because he forwards political causes in the US and abroad that are vehemently anti-global warming and anti environmental protection in general (among other things...). This will likely more than undo any contributions he's theoretically made.
He's a co-president with Trump recently forbidding mentioning climate change in documents, destroying ecology research, pushing energy policy EO supporting fossil fuel producers, and dumping federal EVs and existing chargers in the buildings. It looks like he just cares about the profit from EVs and completely disregards the environment part.
The richer Elon Musk gets, the more he (appears) to use that wealth to skew politics towards anti-"eco" policies. By giving Trump an unprecedented $250 million during the 2024 election, he may have even been the deciding factor in funding some of the advertising that led people to decide to vote Trump, or to stay home instead of vote for Harris.
And needless to say, Trump's policies on the environment ("drill baby drill") don't exactly align with the hippie stereotype of electric car buyers ("no more oil").
He was literally and directly funding targeted advertising that told people in Muslim areas that Harris supported Israel and in Jewish dominated areas that she supported Hamas.
He was working with Stephen Miller, one of the crazier members of Trump's team (no easy achievement), on this.
fwiw microtargeting ads is extremely common, all presidential campaigns for the past 20 years at least have been doing this. If you're not cynical about ~everyone in politics you're probably drinking too much microtargeted kool-aid (your favorite flavor!):
A CNN investigation found that Vice President Kamala Harris is running contradictory ads about the war in Israel, depending on where you live.
If you live in Michigan, a state with a dense Muslim-American population, you will see ads about how she supports the relief efforts in Gaza, where she says she "will not be silent."
The Michigan ad states: "What has happened in Gaza in the past nine months in devastating, we cannot allow ourselves to become numb to the suffering," Harris is quoted in the ad.
If you drive East to Pennsylvania and flip on a television, you'll see the vice president at a different podium in an ad saying: "Let me be clear, I will always stand up for Israel's right to defend itself, and I will always ensure Israel's ability to defend itself."
For the second ad, taken from her DNC speech, the part where she advocates for peace in Gaza was edited out. CNN reports it was taken out so her message could be more strongly accepted by Jewish voters in Pennsylvania.
> Which is odd as it directly goes against his own interests.
His recent interest is power. He can use that for profit later in many different ways - he's working on firing people who wanted to investigate his idea of using X as a payment network, for example.
Believe it or not, twelve figures can probably influence an election regardless of the first digit. Zeroing out tesla and taking him down to a paltry hundred-billion-and-change would still leave him handily able to cut another quarter-billion-dollar check come ‘28.
I mean, that hasn't changed in the last quarter so people buying Teslas before had already come to terms with the fact that they were buying an unreliable luxury vehicle they can't get rid of...
I know it’s a ceo playtoy but for me the cybertruck with its design quirks killed the brand for me. They are so many idiotic decisions on the truck that I just don’t trust the engineering and design teams anymore. I was driving with a colleague and we had to clean the headlights every 40 minutes because of snow…
> Tesla has consistently ranked low in CR's reliability surveys:
> In the 2021 Brand Report Card, Tesla ranked 16th out of 32 brands, down from 11th in 2020.
> In 2022, Tesla ranked 23rd out of 28 brands with a reliability score of 39 out of 100.
> J.D. Power:
> In the 2023 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study, Tesla had 242 issues per 100 vehicles, significantly above the industry average of 186, placing it 28th out of 32 brands.
> RepairPal:
> Tesla vehicles average 171 mechanical issues per 100 vehicles, compared to the industry average of around 120.
> 27th out of 28 brands in CR's reliability study (BusinessInsider.com and InsideEVs.com).
Elon vs Reform UK is extremely funny, because Reform is the wholly owned pet project of Richard Tice. A local real estate guy who's a mere millionaire and unimpressed at a foreign billionaire trying to run him over with superior money.
Nah, it's even funnier than that. It's majority owned by Farage the guy Elon wanted to oust, with Tice holding the rest, because as you say he's a money man whose pet project is giving Farage power.
Also, even Farage's most implacable opponents would concede that he's by far the most effective campaigning MP in the UK, as well as an avid Trump supporter, so dumping him would be a hilarious own goal if it was even possible especially when it's dumping him for not endorsing a football hooligan. It would also be history repeating itself since Farage's old party went from winning elections to being a complete irrelevance when Farage "retired" and the hooligans joined...
I thought he wanted Farage to let Tommy Robinson join reform in return for a large donation.
> It would also be history repeating itself since Farage's old party went from winning elections to being a complete irrelevance when Farage "retired" and the hooligans joined
IIRC the trigger for Farage to leave that party (he had already resigned as leader) was the new party leader wanted to form an alliance with Tommy Robinson's lot.
He wanted Farage to bend all the way over. Farage refused so Elon tried to oust him, completely misunderstanding that the Reform party is Farage. It'd be like if Elon had gotten in a spat with Trump during the election and tried to swap him out for Vivek as the head of MAGA.
It's remarkable how much both Trump and Farage are cults of personality. I don't think they could easily be replaced. I wonder if Brexit would have happened if Farage hadn't survived his plane crash? Or would the media elect another figurehead to put on all the talk shows?
> I wonder if Brexit would have happened if Farage hadn't survived his plane crash? Or would the media elect another figurehead to put on all the talk shows?
Seeing as the difference was 1.89%, even marginally less effective campaigning would've doubtless resulted in a vote to remain in the EU.
Farage is quite reasonable on many policy positions also and reflects the views of quite a lot of the British public who would prefer traditional values, less immigration and the like. While I don't think I'd vote for him personally he has a good chance of being the next PM.
I think its also that people greatly dislike the big parties, and have turned away from the Blair/Cameron "centrist" consensus.
AT the last election the parties that got the biggest increases in their share of the vote were Reform and Green. Two very different parties and they have little in common other than not being Labour or the Conservatives. I suspect they would have done even better without a FPTP system.
Reform support is too broad geographically and demographically that Farage has very little chance of being the next PM, unless the UK changes from FPTP. They take votes away from the Conservatives much more than they do Labour. This is why Cameron and Boris both buckled to UKIP/BrexitParty/Reform, but Starmer doesn't need to.
FPTP also benefits parties with strong regional hotspots, such as Labour in cities.
Yeah, they're quite _different_. I'd call Farage very good at what he does (lying, largely), but he doesn't have the same sort of cult of personality as Trump (or for that matter Musk).
I'm British and think Elon Musk does a lot of cool things. I don't really care about what he does in American politics, I actually think the idea that government needs to stop wasting money is a good thing.
But he tries to influence European/British politics without living here, often believing mistruths or things out of context. Americans moan (rightfully so) when Europeans try get involved in their politics, but are happy to do the reverse.
Regarding Tesla, the UK/EU is going to make zero effort to protect Tesla from Chinese imports that the US will. Musk has burned that bridge.
> I don't really care about what he does in American politics.
You should. Whether you like it or not, what he is doing in the US is going to affect you one way or another, irrespective of his meddling in UK politics. Even if he focused his attention solely on US, the world is connected and particularly the US/European relationship has been one of the defining features of geopolitics over the last 70 years. Musk and company are basically dismantling this relationship.
The current US administration will profoundly alter the relationships between countries and power blocks for the foreseeable future. The US will cease being a reliable partner for it's old allies the UK included.
Musk was doing many cool things, but currently his focus seems to be to dismantle democracy, and this should definitely worry you if you value freedom.
> I don't really care about what he does in American politics
Makes sense. Except that American politics can have a huge impact on Europe. Just look at Trumps shafting of Ukraine in favor of a relationship with Russia .
Not previous user, but as an Italian I am genuinely worried about how powerful and dangerous Elon is. The man effectively controls a good bunch of the telecom and space capabilities of the most powerful country in the world and its allies.
I want to have nothing to do with any of his businesses, socials, services and I'm extremely worried about doge and his presence in the US administration.
The person completely lacks any empathy, it's a full blown sociopath. His politics are just a reflection of his deep psychological malaise.
My neighbour made a point of telling me he bought his before when I said "good morning". Now he has a cheeky bumper sticker stating it a bit more clearly.
I have not driven the Mercedes but I have driven the Ioniq. It was a very nice vehicle. The showstopper for me was that it had no rear wiper. This seems like a minor thing, but I live in a part of New England where half of the roads are unpaved and during the winter the paved roads are heavily salted, so a wiper really is a necessity. The newest model now has this, but I already pulled the trigger on a new vehicle.
I ended up buying a Chevy Bolt during its final model year. This may be more of a reflection of my own history of buying inexpensive vehicles, but it is the best vehicle I have ever owned. I could not get over the price of the Ioniq. I just needed something that got me from point A to point B, and I wanted something that did so without gasoline. The Bolt far surpassed my requirements, and it was affordable. Honestly, I avoided American-made vehicles for a long time, having had bad experiences with the unreliability of a sequence of Dodges and Fords when I was younger. The Bolt changed my opinion about Chevrolet, although the CarPlay situation is pretty tragic…
FWIW, we bought an Ioniq 5 last spring, live in Michigan, and the lack of a rear wiper has been a non-issue completely. However, and this is a big caveat, I like the rearview camera and never use my rearview mirror as a mirror. Some people prefer the mirror, since the camera display requires you to shift your field of view in a weird way, and if you like the mirror, then the lack of a wiper would be a big deal. For me, I completely forget there is no rear wiper, and actually prefer it now as it makes cleaning snow off a tad bit easier!
I've had an Ioniq since last spring, and while I briefly looked at the Mercedes, it was never a serious contender for me given its cost. The ioniq is awesome, though. The only complaints I have are really minor. Now, part of my love for the car is that it is my first EV, and EVs are just way better than ICE cars - except for the range issue, and we just drive around town 99% of the time, so that's a non issue. It is just so much simpler, powerful, and fun than I expected.
The ioniq 5, specifically, is great, although I kind of wish we would've waited for the 2025 model. I like physical buttons (which is one of the reason I like the Ioniq) and the 2025 model added some more. Plus it has wireless Android Auto, and a few other nice improvements.
Oh, the only actual complaint, still minor, is that it's turning radius isn't the greatest. That's really the only thing that bugs me about it.
Have no hands-on experience with EQS, other than that it stands next to my door (neighbour's), but EQS is huge, costs 2x Ionic 5, has a 100 kWh battery, aerodynamics of a brick, presumably better suspension... a completely different segment.
I way looking at Ionic 5, but it was shortly before the facelift, so I could not even configure it anymore. Got a VW ID.7, very happy with it.
To me, people who ever said or believed 'vote with your wallet' or 'consumers made their choice' then complained about boycott or people not buying/threatening not to buy specific brands are hypocritical (and those unaware of how hypocritical they are are just idiots, because it's obvious).
Count how many things you bought Made in China over the years, purchases that have been directly funding the CCP to commit actual genocide and crimes against humanity for years, then apply your anti-Tesla-owner logic to that fact, then look at the clown you see in the mirror because that's what you are with that logic when you apply it to yourself.
And with that egg on your face, hypocrites like you dare lecture people for buying a car brand, just because the company's owner raised his right arm. Two-faced cherry-picking hypocrites. You have no logical arguments, just cheap appeals to emotional manipulation. It's best to be quiet and let people assume you're stupid than talk and remove all doubt.
BTW, did you know VW, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche used slave labor in WW2? What do you say about the owners of those brands? Why don't you all hate those users too using the same logic?
> You have no logical arguments, just cheap appeals to emotional manipulation
What? i mean, people who argue for "voting with their wallet" and then crying when people do just that are not hypocritical?
It seem very factual to me, where is the appeal to emotion? Is it on the "people who can't see how hypocritical it is are idiots" ? Where is the manipulation? I truly think that, i don't see a flaw in my logic there
> BTW, did you know VW, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche used slave labor in WW2? What do you say about the owners of those brands?
Yes, as did Renault, and i own one (well, i share the ownership of one). Honestly i don't care (like i don't care about people buying Tesla or not), i don't think people should vote with their wallet, i'd rather have people go out and protest or organize, because action is better than passivity. I was never in the "consumer made their choice"/"vote with your wallet" crowd, i always tought it was a discussion closer that people used to avoid thinking about issues. I'm quite happy however than a part of that crowd show how hypocritical they are, and i try to make them remember that.
My comment wasn't aimed at you, i couldn't have known you ever said "vote with your wallet", but i make it my duty to remind people who say that they should then shut up about boycotts.
But i guess you will probably avoid responding to that comment now that you understand how wrong you are (THIS is emotional manipulation, or a bad attempt at it :D)
That, or your incessant self-aggrandizing misantrophy rubs me the wrong way.
In a flagged thread where you refer to others you don't agree with as having mental illnesses, you try to defend yourself by suggesting that I might have a reading disability.
Here's what an impartial LLM has to say about your replies to my arguments using the reasoning deep thinking option:
>Please read these comments below. Is fredrikholm correct or did he misinterpret what FirmwareBurner was saying? Would you say fredrikholm was arguing in good or in bad faith towards FirmwareBurner ?
>Conclusion
Fredrikholm misinterpreted what FirmwareBurner was saying. FirmwareBurner’s criticism was specific to people who judge others’ buying choices, not a blanket dismissal of everyone who cares about purchases. Fredrikholm’s sarcastic reply exaggerates and distorts this into a broader attack, missing the clarification FirmwareBurner provided in response to palata. Thus, fredrikholm did not correctly interpret FirmwareBurner’s intended meaning.
Fredrikholm’s comment leans heavily toward bad faith. The sarcastic tone, misrepresentation of FirmwareBurner’s position, and reliance on a personal jab rather than substantive rebuttal indicate a lack of sincere engagement. While online miscommunication or emotional reactions could explain some of this, the overall approach—especially ignoring the clarification and contributing nothing constructive—suggests fredrikholm was not arguing in good faith toward FirmwareBurner.
In other words, you've been caught acting as what youngsters refer to as "a roach bitch" in the comments mate.
>And yes, "you must have a reading disability" is a personal attack.
How else would you address those who attack you in a way that doesn't break the rules, when they obviously are not reading your arguments and are instead pulling made up shit out of their ass to twist the narrative in their (malicious) direction? Now suddenly I'm the bad guy for calling them out?
Here's what an impartial LLM has to say about this thread using the deep reasoning option:
>Please read these comments below. Is fredrikholm correct or did he misinterpret what FirmwareBurner was saying? Would you say fredrikholm was arguing in good or in bad faith towards FirmwareBurner ?
>Conclusion
Fredrikholm misinterpreted what FirmwareBurner was saying. FirmwareBurner’s criticism was specific to people who judge others’ buying choices, not a blanket dismissal of everyone who cares about purchases. Fredrikholm’s sarcastic reply exaggerates and distorts this into a broader attack, missing the clarification FirmwareBurner provided in response to palata. Thus, fredrikholm did not correctly interpret FirmwareBurner’s intended meaning.
Fredrikholm’s comment leans heavily toward bad faith. The sarcastic tone, misrepresentation of FirmwareBurner’s position, and reliance on a personal jab rather than substantive rebuttal indicate a lack of sincere engagement. While online miscommunication or emotional reactions could explain some of this, the overall approach—especially ignoring the clarification and contributing nothing constructive—suggests fredrikholm was not arguing in good faith toward FirmwareBurner.
And yet I'm still the bad guy here for some reason.
You point out that they're not responding to what you actually said. You do it without saying that they have mental illnesses.
You even might say "this seems like trolling; I didn't say X at all..."
And, if it's clearly trolling, you flag it.
And you leave it there.
See, the conversation isn't just you and them. The conversation is you and them and all of us reading it. And if you go more over the top, more ad hominem than they do, then the rest of us reading it see you as the unhinged one.
Don't try to win the conversation with people who are in bad faith. You can't. (Don't even try to out-insult them. You aren't going to get them to go "Oh, hey, he used a better insult than me. Maybe he's right...") Instead, try to win the readers. You can't do that by being more insulting than the one you're arguing with.
>You even might say "this seems like trolling; I didn't say X at all..." And, if it's clearly trolling, you flag it.
This clearly doesn't work when you're the minority. Flag bombing is a real thing on HN. Just look at my original comments where I gave clear arguments why that logic is flawed due to double standards and cherry picking can of worms it opens up. Plenty of other examples on HN as well.
People will flag bomb you just because they don't like what you said, even though what you said is the truth (ask a LLM if my reasoning and arguments are sound) and doesn't break the rules, people just don't like being exposed as hypocrites when they see themselves as pillars of virtue (narcissistic main character/hero syndrome).
Hating Elon Musk at every corner is the current trend amongst this crowd, and if you fight the trend in any way, even with logical devil's advocate arguments, you will get flag bombed, because people are subject to mob behavior (been documented in psychology) and only want to hear comments that reinforce their beliefs not ones that tear down their beliefs. Basically the behavior is all emotional, not logical or rational.
I continued the discussion instead of flagging those who act in bad faith (the majority of replies I got) since I don't care about upvotes, I care about debating ideas and proving a point.
If it harms others or me, I will tell you about it. You can ignore it from a distance, but if you tend to purchase those things, the illness is not in my head.
> I do care about what I buy, I just don't care what others buy and what other people think about the things that I buy. Is that clear now? You need special flavor of mental illness to care and vocalize about the shit other people buy with their own money.
Are you fine with someone buying a human slave, then?
And yet you felt the need to inject that viewpoint into a thread where everyone is pointing out their own personal preferences and not telling others what to buy.
> You need special flavor of mental illness to ...
I did not downvote you before, because I believe it's your right not to care (even though I disagree).
But being so far away from understanding why people may care as to say that they "need special flavor of mental illness"... you are the one who seemingly needs to learn about the world.
Even if you see it as a white good and not as activism then surely the fact that the resale value will be much lower may assist your decision, unless you're being an activist and choosing the car specifically for what it stands for, no?
You're free to (legally) spend your money how you want, but other people are free to form an impression you and adjust their interactions with you as a result. The car you buy shouldn't subject you to physical violence, but it's perfectly acceptable for people to choose not to associate with you or do business with you as a result and that's a consequence of choices you make.
Do you really know that for sure? Have you asked them if they'd think less of you if you bought a Tesla now?
I judge people by their actions, not the sins of their parents. The companies you list aren't run by the same people, so your question is irrelevant. If Tesla were to toss out Musk and ensure he has no influence then people would likely stop judging Tesla owners the same way they do today.
I'm responding to your comment in a public forum - why would you specifically choose the chance of a low return on your money vs other cars unless you're specifically choosing to be an activist, that's not activism?
> To me, a car is a white good... As long as it fulfills my needs, getting me from A to B safely and cheaply, that's all I care.
Given that the resale value is the most significant factor of "cheaply" in a £40,000 asset, a negative brand image is an important factor here - even if you consider your fellow citizens to be NPCs.
What's wrong with making just one moral choice? Isn't it better than making zero moral choices?
People do what they can, based on what they believe is right (which you may well disagree with), their knowledge, skills, money and time available. That may not be all that much, they might be ill informed, but it is _something_. Perfect is the enemy of good.
Not giving a cent to Elon Musk seems like a reasonable cause if you believe he's gonna use that money for nefarious things. And at least for the things he's (very) publicly involved in, it's quite easy. Most people doing nefarious things do it in the shadows, and are funded in difficult to understand ways.
People judging each other for who they support by giving them money seems fair. You make some great points about what else they would probably see as problematic. This sounds like it could be a fruitful conversation without the name calling.
When you buy something, you do participate in the cash flow that makes the seller/builder company function.
If that company has other activities or influences that you do not agree on, boycotting is not virtue signalling, it's voting with your money.
And while protesting some system from a place built with it may not be perfect, it is still better than refraining from protesting at all, if one has reasons to.
Most people soon forget and really don't care about these things.
The Volkswagen company originated during the Third Reich in an attempt to create an affordable car for the German people. Volkswagen used both Jewish and non-Jewish forced labor, primarily from eastern Europe. The company operated four concentration camps and eight forced-labor camps on its property.
I'd argue that, as horrible as that was, it wasn't as centered in one person as famous and important as Musk. Like buying phones we know were perhaps made by people treated like slaves in China, versus buying something that is represented by one famous person that wants to bring back slavery.
Yeah the whole "people's car" was actually a Nazi memcoin rug-pull scam. They got millions of Germans to put down deposits and make payments for "future delivery" of their "people's car" but zero were ever delivered during the third reich.
People selling their Teslas afraid of associating with Musk is the topic here and the point I'm making is that the current political climate around this company will be a footnote in history that most people will care little about (if not already).
This too shall pass, frankly I think it's a form of cringe virtue signaling.
It's also a form of collective punishment, "I won't buy Tesla because I don't like Elon" is certainly a valid opinion, but what about all the workers who have nothing to do with his politics?
> but what about all the workers who have nothing to do with his politics?
This is a preposterous argument, I'm sorry. Should I feel sorry for people who enable Musk's antics? Why? They get paid very well to work for him I'm sure.
I disagree with Musk's antics and as such I'm not going to give him money. What's so difficult to understand about this?
I don't care that in 20 years time he'll be forgotten. We are here and now, and the best way to send him a message that what he is doing is not OK is by hurting his wallet.
You're sending a message to Elon about as much as sending a message to Mars Inc by not buying a Snickers bar.
Sending "real" messages is more than not buying things from companies or people you don't like and then virtue signaling about it online from the comfort of your armchair.
So you are saying I should instead happily give him my money even though I deeply disagree with what he's doing? Let's take your argument ad absurdum: you'd happily give money to a mass murder as long as he was making a product you like?
Yes and many people don't. What is your point? Many people are upset with what Elon is doing, that's what is being discussed. Like it or not, Tesla and Elon are the same thing. It's his choice. He wants to be the public face of a company, he can't then selectively choose to shield said company from his antics when they backfire.
Nothing stopped Elon from divesting himself of his commercial holdings and announce that he wants to enter politics. Then I, and many others, would have no qualms about buying Tesla cars.
Obviously, doing so would've required a degree of personal integrity and humility, which he seems to be lacking.
And now it's a public company with a CEO so obscure that he _does not even have a wikipedia page_. "Oh, well, Ford and VW used to be run by evil bastards most of a century ago so it's improper to point out that Tesla currently is" is a bizarre argument.
Moving to another country is a good idea as an individual. However, for a nation as a whole, nothing is easier but building rich people: Leave, and somebody else will take your place.
We have a law that somehow covers this in France. It is permitted to use a metal detector for leisure provided that it is not a search for archaeological objects.
However, this law can be interpreted from many angles, as it is difficult to define what is archaeological or not. There are certain associations which defend “leisure detection” as long as it is not located on a registered archaeological or historical site. But their point of view is not shared by archaeologists, who consider that any place can be considered an archaeological site, relegating leisure detection to fine sandy beaches.
In this context, case law says that there are no completely accidental archaeological discoveries with a metal detector.
Nice tip. Thanks for sharing.
I'll probably try this by making a cheap one with one of my kids' microbits. This seems like the perfect board for doing this.
Like if you dropped the earth on a giant sheet, it would stretch the sheet more than what the moon would have.