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Easy question with an easy answer that threatens a lot of bad people: immigrants are good.

That’s way too simplistic.

Not all immigrants are good. Many cost society more than they contribute. The right kind of immigrants are good.


Pretty much all immigrants are good, or at least good for something. People generally want or need all the same things. Xenophobia by and large is an irrational urge.

Paint me this picture of an immigrant who costs more than they contribute.


I am sure that Denmark, a country that amongst other things imposed forced sterilisation against the Inuit population up until the 1970s, and abused people with disabilities [0], is offering black-skinned people equal opportunities and not pigeon-holing them into unemployment and social exclusion...

[0]https://www.dw.com/en/denmark-apologizes-for-abuse-of-people...


I mean, it's not particularly difficult to imagine(and I'm an immigrant to the UK). You move here, then after a while you bring over your retired parents to care for them in their old age. They are not contributing financially to the system but they are costing British taxpayers a lot of money.

The point though - it's irrelevant. Even those cases, and even straight up cases where people come here and just go on the dole, don't change the fact that as a whole immigrants are a net positive to the country(financially), and that's based on the OFR findings not my imagination.


Brexit was about leaving Europe, whose immigrants where overwhelmingly young people or couples which would've been net contributors, spending up to a decade before returning to their home countries. I have literally seen this happen dozen of times in my time there.

Myself I have spent almost two decades in Britain, paid my taxes (at the highest rate at that), and decided to leave when I saw that the immigration talk had turned everybody into racist lunatics, and even people like me, from the same continent, were made to feel unwelcome by this rhetoric. For all I care, it's a failed state, yet it has not yet seen the bottom until it progresses its descent into decay, the same that has infected the US and elected Trump.

You will get your Reform government and it'll be Brexit times 10. Only then, maybe, the British people will stop falling for far-right propaganda paid for the Russians.


Yep, it's incredibly unfortunate, given how obvious it is.


Immigrants are people. People are not automatically good. Or bad.

Migration is not just a choice between an open door and a closed door, but a spectrum. There are a variety of levels between those two extremes.


Yes.

Mixing of cultures always lead to adding up their different solutions to all kinds of problems, improving the fitness of the result among other groups of humans.

It's gathering all the positive ideas or traditions of several groups, and the less useful or negative aspects tend to just fade naturally.


yeah that didnt workout in germany

There's another theory which says that if people have health care, food, shelter, education, and liberty, they won't commit crimes like this. Just a thought.

Those are pre-requisites, but not enough.

You also need society to have local cultures, as well as the culture at large, that actively oppose such behavior as immoral and/or shameful, with enforcement by peers. This I say based on two well-proven models, the sociological typology of societies as guilt, shame, or fear-based, and the psychological model of the six stages (level of complexity) of moral reasoning, that shows that up to 85% of the adult population worldwide derive their values from group-affiliation.

Atop that, individuals themselves need hope in the future, meaning the perspective of improving upon the baseline that those pre-requisites provide, since a baseline is emotionally neutral. The perspective of remaining at exactly that same baseline year after year after decade isn't sufficient.

With all of the above provided, petty crime is minimized to the point only people with severe personality disorders commit them. There's no way to fix this, but it becomes so low we're now talking of Japan levels of per-capita crimes, if not less.


You are glossing over the fact that Japan severely punishes crime, and acquittals are almost unheard of.

Japan, the society with such a corrupt criminal justice system that being arrested for anything regardless of guilt is generally considered the end of your prospects in life?

Both things can be true, that Japan's criminal justice system is awful, and that Japanese people have a strong culture of respect for the commons and community.

Yes, not only are both true, but one is the consequence of the other's extreme.

When you socially punish people for sticking out, even harmlessly, eventually you end up criminally punishing people for sticking out, even harmlessly.


It's not a theory. It's socialism and it works fine in Scandinavia, Switzerland, and a bunch of other places.

Im Danish, and I approve of the welfare state system, but we still have people cutting down EV charger cables etc here.

The answer is, you still do socialism, and you also pay someone to go around busting scrap yards that buy obviously-stolen material.

Just focusing on the demand-side dramatically reduced incidences of catalytic converter theft in the US. You still get the occasional attempt, but basically no scrap yard will take catalytic converters without a title to the vehicle with matching VIN, and most will want to see the vehicle.

Yes, requiring paperwork to scrap wiring is bureaucracy manifest. But legitimate people just do not roll up to scrap yards with a van full of tangled 4/0.

The big catalytic converter buyer was so brazen, he had a mobile app. Free markets for stolen scrap is just beyond tolerable at this point.


Italy is no Denmark but you still require to register before selling you scrap copper.

I think it's a reasonable response for a real problem and refusing to do this due to some idealistic free market principle appears to me to be a sign of fanaticism.


Scandinavian scrap metal thieves organize trucks and cranes to steal copper roofs from old churches and rip down railroad overhead lines all the time.

Free healthcare and education, guaranteed housing and social safety nets make little difference.

Some people will stop at nothing to get more, no matter how much they already have. (Applies to billionaires and paupers alike). I guess you could call it having an entrepreneurial spirit.

No one steals car stereos anymore though, because you can't sell them to anyone. That mechanism could be put to more work. Heavy, EU-wide supervision and enforcement against scrap metal dealers would probably make a difference.


The replies to you illustrate this is provably false. Socialism has yet to work anywhere it's tried.

inflation

I suspect we'll have our first $10T company in the next 2-3 years. That's only doubling.


Separate commercial and residential rates? The first $X dollars are not taxed?

We can and have done this.


On the countrary, nonprofits need unions more than for profits. They exploit their workers more. They have fewer resources and exploit their mission to get more work from their workers.

If I'm donating money to fight cancer, and the majority of the money goes to administrative staff, that's inherently a flawed charity. It's exactly what led to the downfall of the Susan G Komen foundation.

There's also a death spiral problem. If donations drop and administrative costs stay the same, that charity's ratings only get worse.

There's a reason most examples of successful non-profit unions all rely on steady streams of government grant funding.


What do you think the core purpose of the Wikipedia Foundation is? Do you think the engineers who write the code and operate the site are “administrative staff”?

If a new software or hardware innovation came along that would allow the engineers to operate the site 2x more efficiently, thus saving the foundation and it's donors a significant amount of money, would the union support it or fight it?

Is there any charity (older than five years) where the majority of the money doesn’t go to administrative staff?


this is all insane. it assumes you want charity forever! the initial assumption is already wrong.

also, back on topic:

Executive Salaries Position Salary (Annual)

Ex-CEO (Katherine Maher) $789,495

COO (Janeen Uzzell) $503,844

CFO (Jaime Villagomez) $386,433

General Counsel (Amanda Keton) $396,514

Current Highest Salaries Position Salary (Annual)

Software Engineering Manager $164,080

Technical Program Manager $159,200

Senior Software Engineer $109,513

Product Designer $95,972

Additional Salary Insights

    The median total compensation for employees at the Wikimedia Foundation is approximately $109,513.

did you mean to reply to my comment? if yes, can I ask you to explain what do you mean by assumption? where is that coming from?

regarding WMF (and other non-profits, like Mozilla), this is a well-known phenomenon - regarding C-suite compensation (it's usually about risk aversion, and that the board or whatever foundations have, is also usually sitting on other non-profits, and rarely they optimize by moving to the cheapest place and hiring folks for much cheaper, etc)


Yes, workers in non-profits are status-compensated as well as monetarily compensated. I don't think this is an argument for non-profit unionization.

I don't think you've ever met anybody who worked for a non-profit in your life.

both my parents worked for non-profits their entire lives

"status-compensated"?

people enjoy doing high-status things and will trade off pay for status. asking for equal pay as low-status work is essentially asking to have your cake and eat it too

Is working for Wikipedia somehow a higher status job than working for Google?

edit: I'm asking because my 7 year stint as an engineer at Wikipedia hasn't provided me with an endless stream of lucrative job offers.


absolutely and i'm surprised that you don't think so.

e: and to your edit, i'm talking about social/moral status


Can you explain what you mean by social/moral status? I haven't seen a big run of non-profit workers marrying movie stars or becoming Pope.

Isn't the Pope like the canonical high-status non-profit worker?

Yes, however, my point is that the vast majority of people working for non-profits do not receive that sort of recognition. So what does "social status" mean?

Yes, but notice that the pope gets paid very well

I thought the pope doesn't receive a salary?

That's right, my bad, I just meant that he's clearly doing just fine but said something very wrong instead

Your edit is comparing opposites, basically making the ops point for them.

You work at google for money. Money is high status under capitalism.

You work at Wikipedia for status in the traditional sense - you trade capitalist status (the salary) for the higher actual status of working for a non profit.


No one thinks non-profit work is ‘high-status.’ People do it because making the world better in some way is more personally motivating than figuring out how to put video ads on refrigerators or whatever.o

Ok, I don't necessarily disagree, but it is thus living your values, which at the very least increases ones self confidence and self perception of status.

Whether one thinks that improves one's status in the eyes of others imo depends on one's cynicism. "Whatever, I'm living my values, they just don't get it. Maybe others will one day."

That's how I see it for myself anyway, if I'm being honest. But in the end I don't think there's any better path to happiness and fulfillment than living my values.


Sure, but happiness and fulfillment isn't status. Not because there's anything wrong with them but because that's not what "status" means.

feeling better because your job fits better in your moral framework that you get from society is a status-mediated effect and i feel you can usually find social scaffolding under things that are articulated as purely intrinsic.

If words don’t mean what they mean, absolutely

I'd love to live in a world where working for a non-profit was high status. Unfortunately that's just not the world we live in. Maybe if you are someone high up at a well known charity, but the bulk of the people keeping non-profits running do not get status from their work.

Uh...

Can you name me a single job where the tradeoff is "You won't get paid much because this position is so respectable"?

There are respectable jobs where you don't get paid much because the area of work simply does not generate much money (charity), or because they're being exploited and guilt tripped into working hard because of their mission (charity), and there are jobs which are respectable primarily because they pay very well...

But there are no jobs where you're "status-compensated", where you are paid less but that's okay, because the job is so respectable so it's okay to pay you less.


> IBM is generally considered the leader

You must not talk to competent people. IBM is very experienced at this grift. I remember when I used to go to conferences in a different field and IBM would announce "state of the art" results that were very obviously done by cheating (making an ensemble model and tuning the weights on the test set). Everyone doing real work would ignore them, and then they'd go sell to clueless midcap companies on the basis of that announcement.


They are either the #1 or #2 quantum company in the world next to Google and Quantinuum.

They also keep getting pumped full of DoD money for quantum foundries and modular systems research.


As the joke goes, have either of them factored 35 yet?


lol, fair point.

Also have any of the "AI" companies figured out AGI yet?


No, but you can run your own models and check it for yourself.


This sounds like US college / night life / young adult house party scene, too, fwiw.


Uh I regret to inform you that's all illegal now.


I can't get my roof replaced in less than a year. These things take time .


I think the parent is saying it's good because immigrants will go elsewhere and the US will continue to decline. Which will be good for humanity.


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