imo it's a cultural thing specific to organizations which are raking in money, as many tech companies are. The less actual competitive pressure there is the more everyone is pressured to just shut up and take their cut. Whether it's more or less than it could be is less important than just not rocking the boat.
Whereas if real existential need is on the line then people are incentivized to give a shit about the outcome more.
Tech is so rich in general that the norm is to just shut up and enjoy your upple-middle-class existence instead of caring about the details. After all, if this company blows up, there's another one way that will take most of you.
Not that this excludes the same behavior in industries that are less lucrative. There's cultural inertia to contend with, plus loads of other effects. But I have noticed that this attitude seems to spontaneously arise whenever a place is sufficiently cushy.
Also, this take doesn't (on its own) recommend one strategy or the other. Maybe it makes the most sense to go along with things or fight them for personal reasons, uncorrelated to the economic ones. But it's good, I think, to recognize that the impulse is somewhat biased by the risk-reward calculation of a rich workplace. Basically it is essentially coupled to a sort of privilege.
Letting it die is the self-serving, career-optimizing, amoral take. But it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. A bunch of people wasting years of their life, not to mention all the resources, is a tragedy worth avoiding.
Of course, the wisdom of taking the person risk is a continuum. In some cases it is and in some it isn't. But.. To omit the ethical angle entirely seems like a bad take.
I don't understand this point of view. Most of the people aren't wasting their time. They're getting paid for the effort. The business is taking a risk, and pays people to realize their vision. Some visions are bad.
Getting personally attached and emotionally invested in work you get paid for is a risk too. There's nothing wrong with that. But there's also nothing wrong putting your time in and churning out requirements if that's what you want.
of course they're wasting their time. a year of work deleted? all you have to show for it is money? you could have money AND something to be proud of. what a waste it was, to do something pointless for a year when you could have done something important.
not to say that there aren't experiments worth running. but in my experience (and in the example in the OP's article), the experiment often isn't even worth running. Intelligent people knew from the jump that it was a bad idea. No experiment necessary. Just pointless waste, enabled by hubris and apathy.
It seems different people get different things out of work. My favorite kind of code to write at work is code that I know will never make it to production. No chance of requirement change or incomprehensible support tickets. I mean your way is valid too.
ah, to be clear, I'm not really talking about anyone's individual values here. It may well be that a person is as rewarded, or even moreso, getting to work on some pie-in-the-sky foolish idea as they are one that is productive for society.
My point is that, from the viewpoint of an external observer: we want people doing prosocial work if it's possible, so if there's counterfactuals where they do or don't, we'd rather they do. And the point of taking moral stances on stuff is to press for the attitudes and behaviors that lead to a world that maximize's everyone's safety and happiness and prosperity and whatnot. Therefore it is moral, at some level: a world where the company wastes money on dumb stuff is worse than a world where the company channels that money into value for humanity.
It has nothing to do with the individual's preferences, and I don't begrudge them their preferences either way. My point is that when we're evaluating "letting projects fail" as a policy, the moral angle needs to be part of the conversation, because it does have moral implications. Convincing yourself that it does not is a moral choice: it amounts to saying that you do not feel responsible for those implications in the slightest. That doesn't mean you should turn around and be fully responsible for them, either. As with anything there is a lot to weigh. But completely writing it off seems wrong.
You can voice your concerns, but should not go fighting, especially at personal cost. It could be that you may be wrong in your assessment, and the project turns out to be successful, or it could be that you may have been right for the wrong reasons, or it could be that you were right all along.
In any case, you are part of a company, and that means recognizing that yours is only one of many opinions driving strategy and allocating resources. If you find your self often needing to stand up against others for your beliefs, then you are probably not in the right company.
the point of expertise and intelligence is, in part, to be able to know what's going to happen BEFORE doing it. Perhaps without even doing it. You could be wrong, sure -- but there has to be a rate of that happening, and the more intelligent people are wrong less. At some point there are situations where you _know_ what's going to happen and then it happens, inevitably, providing no new information. And in my experience this happens _all the time_ in big tech. It is not hard to predict the failures. But things happen for social and political reasons, not intelligent ones, and so the predictions don't matter.
Nah, because everyone is an expert sometimes. They don't listen and you gotta let them touch the hot stove. Sometimes there's not much you can do. Sometimes people trust in random blog posts or now AI more than the people they work with. So unless you can get through to them with an idea that isn't your own... You gotta let them touch that stove.
If the company is 'one dev ignoring a bad project heading to failure' away from bankruptcy, you should have accepted a job offer somewhere else last year.
No one's talking about building ethically-problematic software projects here like software to aid despotic regimes, harm human rights, etc. We're talking about business projects that senior engineers believe will fail either in execution or in the market. There's nothing unethical about just letting these things fail, especially if they aren't even a project you're assigned to work on. It's upper management's responsibility to assess risk and pick good project to assign resources to; as a senior engineer, your only job is to advise them when consulted. If upper management is incompetent and doing a bad job choosing projects, then your recourse is to go looking for a better-run company, not telling your executives how to do their jobs.
It seems there's a difference between unethical projects and projects that are just a bad idea. If someone wants to pay someone else to work on Uber for cat socks, but with AI, I don't think there's much of an ethical dimension.
Yes, that's certainly true. I guess what I was alluding to is that I think ethics should inform all decision-making, including business. A bad idea isn't necessarily unethical, although the execution of it (or even a good idea) can be. Unless the idea harms unconsenting others.
Generally, it's not what you sing, it's how you sing it.
(also that of a "non-ethical" person, like an animal or a person with no agency in the matter, if you want to make the distinction. I'm not sure we should but I guess it's an interesting question)
that's not how morality works... morality is about doing what you think is right instead of excusing yourself not doing it. If you think a bad thing is going to happen that you have agency to prevent, that's on you. Whether you have the data from repeated events or not doesn't matter. (Of course, your confidence in your own belief goes up with more data. But there are still plenty of cases where you can be sure even on the first shot.)
* landlords not wanting as much money (unlikely, although it happens at small scales)
* rent control-type policies
* competition
And as far as I know competition is the only thing that works at scale. Although, people tend to emphasize intralocal competition as where this gets fixed. But I tend to think that the even larger issue is that so many places suck to live in (due to schools, jobs, culture, lack of prosocial governance...) that everyone with options congregates in the good ones.
There's an effect every larger than all of those, though, which is wealth disparity. If incomes differ by fewer orders of magnitude then prices can't vary as much across markets. At the end of the day when rich people can and do buy 2-5 homes and everyone else can barely buy one of course you're going to have problems.
We had two types of competition in the past that are much less common now:
- competition from new builds
- competition from different locations
The first was killed by restrictive zoning. The second still exists but is no longer useful. You can move to West Virginia for cheap rent, but you'll have to move to a location without jobs.
The combination of far less people moving across states and of jobs concentrating in expensive places to live is what killed that second type of competition.
I’d be interested in a study of moves; it feels to me like everyone used to move much further and more often for work, now it seems things are quieter. But that could all just be feels.
well the target audience is people who do enjoy it. so, not you. maybe there's a whole dubious narrative about why... or maybe they just have tastes that seem simple and basic to you. why not?
Whereas if real existential need is on the line then people are incentivized to give a shit about the outcome more.
Tech is so rich in general that the norm is to just shut up and enjoy your upple-middle-class existence instead of caring about the details. After all, if this company blows up, there's another one way that will take most of you.
Not that this excludes the same behavior in industries that are less lucrative. There's cultural inertia to contend with, plus loads of other effects. But I have noticed that this attitude seems to spontaneously arise whenever a place is sufficiently cushy.
Also, this take doesn't (on its own) recommend one strategy or the other. Maybe it makes the most sense to go along with things or fight them for personal reasons, uncorrelated to the economic ones. But it's good, I think, to recognize that the impulse is somewhat biased by the risk-reward calculation of a rich workplace. Basically it is essentially coupled to a sort of privilege.
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