The S400 seems to do a good job of shooting down drones despite what CNN/MSN says. It has defended against several thousand drones in the last year. It also successfully used by India in the latest spat and India is placing more orders after its proven success in Operation Sindoor.
Also, Ukrainian drones vary the gamut from cheap, but modern FPV drones for easy mass production to state-of-art naval drones, rivaling anything produced in the world.
> It has defended against several thousand drones in the last year.
The idea of shooting down thousands of cheap drones using the S400 sounds ... interesting, to put it mildly.
> It also successfully used by India in the latest spat and India is placing more orders after its proven success in Operation Sindoor
There's not exactly many options available to India if they want to have any kind of air defense. The S400 certainly isn't terrible, but India also has every reason to exaggerate it's performance. Not only that, but it's not like both sides of that particular conflict haven't already been caught in many blatant lies regarding their performance.
5 or so months after the war Indian Air Force started repeatedly falsely claiming that they downed at least five Pakistani fighter jets, and one AWACS aircraft. This claim is patently absurd and completely unsupported by any evidence, but propaganda is very important to the Modi government.
If India had evidence of them destroying a single Pakistani fighter, they'd absolutely be displaying that all over the place. They don't, because they likely did not hit any.
> Indian Air Force has repeatedly falsely claimed that they downed five Pakistani fighter jets, and one AWACS aircraft. This claim is patently absurd and completely unsupported...
This was also confirmed by several independent international aviation experts not only the IAF. The S-400 achieved a record-setting engagement by shooting down a Saab 2000 AWACS aircraft from a range of greater than 300 km.
Check out the analysis of Austrian military analyst Tom Cooper - he has covered this too.
> If India had evidence of them destroying a single Pakistani fighter, they'd absolutely be displaying that all over the place.
Umm..dude, the strikes were deep into Pakistani territory. Can't show the live site you know ? They did show satellite imagery.
> but propaganda is very important to the Modi government.
The IAF is not in the habit of lying and the government doesn't modify IAF briefings. The only propaganda here is sadly coming from yourself.
>This was also confirmed by several independent international aviation experts not only the IAF. The S-400 achieved a record-setting engagement by shooting down a Saab 2000 AWACS aircraft from a range of greater than 300 km.
Not a single credible source has reported this.
>The only propaganda on this subject is sadly coming from yourself.
Look, there are a plenty of actual photos of the IAF losses in this conflict. The IAF claims of PAF losses took months to surface and are not accompanied by any evidence and are widely considered to be fabrications by the rest of the world, and I'm certainly not talking about pro-Pakistani medias.
>Check out the analysis of Austrian military analyst Tom Cooper - he has covered this extensively.
Tom Cooper is an idiot who also repeated false claims that India had PAF pilots in custody. He's also got an extensive history of making up false claims about non-existent AFU successes against Russia.
Articles like these that are more optimistic than the most optimistic Ukrainian propaganda.
If he is the genuinely best source you can find, maybe it's time to start reconsidering your beliefs.
>Umm..dude, the strikes were deep into Pakistani territory. Can't show the live site you know ? They did show satellite imagery.
Ah yes, of course it's impossible to source footage of a single one of the five jets supposedly destroyed inside Pakistan. That's totally credible!
>The IAF is not in the habit of lying and the government doesn't modify IAF briefings. The only propaganda here is sadly coming from yourself.
So you're telling me that the IAF never claimed to have lost zero planes in the conflict against Pakistan, only to change their story after photos came out? :)
Look, I get you guys have a certain nationalist interest in this topic and it's very emotional. But you could at least try to include some decent sources since this is HN. To start with, I'd love to see some substance for your original claim that Russia is using their super expensive long range S-400 to shoot down thousands of cheap Ukrainian drones when Russia has a plenty of vastly cheaper equipment suited for that particular task. That's a claim I've never seen before, as opposed to the India-Pakistani conflict that has been endlessly litigated at this point.
Wow, I would first like your definition of a credible source before bothering even discussing further - it seems you have some extraordinary high standard that neither media nor government sources or international analysts nor satellite imagery nor some of the photos of the crashed aircraft can meet.
Tom Cooper has now been relegated to an idiot by you. How about John Spencer then ? He is a US military analyst who has also confirmed the efficacy of the S-400 and Operation Sindoor. Is he also an idiot ?
What about (Retd) Pakistani Air Marshal Masood Akhtar who was reported as saying an AWACS was destroyed ? Is he also an idiot ?
> To start with, I'd love to see some substance for your original claim
What would even be the point ? I would point to indian/russian sources and you would immediately shoot them down as propaganda. First, you should confirm what you mean by "substance" and "evidence".
I'll repeat myself: Can you actually find a source for your original claim about Russia using the incredibly costly S-400 platform to shoot down thousands of cheap Ukrainian drones? Russia has much cheaper systems better suited for that task, so it'd be really interesting to hear more about this.
Relitigating the India-Pakistan conflict with someone who seems to have deeply held nationalist beliefs is just not all that exciting to me.
>Wow, I would first like your definition of a credible source before bothering even discussing further - it seems you have some extraordinary high standard that neither media nor government sources or international analysts nor satellite imagery nor some of the photos of the crashed aircraft can meet.
Credible source? Someone who doesn't have a documented track record of repeatedly reporting false rumors as facts would be a nice start.
>How about John Spencer then ? He is a US military expert who has also confirmed the efficacy of the S-400 and Operation Sindoor. Is he also an idiot ?
I think John Spencer is generally a decent source, but with a quick search I couldn't find anything resembling serious analysis by him on this topic. He does in fact have a post where he quickly states that "one [Saab 2000 AEW&C] was destroyed—likely by an S-400 system", but no explanation as to how he arrived at that conclusion.
However, I find it odd that John Spencer is commenting on this anyway given that his expertise lies mostly in urban warfare.
>What about (Retd) Pakistani Air Marshal Masood Akhtar who was reported as saying an AWACS was destroyed ? Is he also an idiot ?
It took you only a couple of minutes to go from the AWACS being shot down in a record breaking engagement by the s-400 to it being damaged on the ground by Indian strikes, I've never suggested that the latter did not happen.
Hindustan Times reports that IAF claims to have destroyed a C130J in Pakistan. Pakistan does not and did not ever have a single C130J. Up to you if you want to blame Hindustan Times or IAF for this obviously false claim.
> Credible source? Someone who doesn't have a documented track record of repeatedly reporting false rumors as facts would be a nice start.
That depends on what you personally take as rumors vs facts. No doubt you would take all Indian/Russian media reporting the S-400 used in drone slaying as rumors. If you wish actual video evidence, it is extremely difficult as obviously the S-400 was only one component of an air defense system used in Sindoor. Its efficacy was confirmed only later by several sources.
> Hindustan Times reports that IAF claims to have destroyed a C130J in Pakistan.
The IAF did NOT claim that. ACM Singh described it as "A C-130-class plane - i.e., an American-made, military transport aircraft dubbed 'Hercules' - may have also been hit". No mention of the "J" variant.
Not really - S-400 efficacy in Operation Sindoor was in my original post too. You questioned that and hence the digression. Your goalposts changed into other utterly unrelated statements made by analysts you don't believe and media you don't believe. (I did not respond to those, because it would completely sidetrack the topic and anyways one of your claims is wrong). Please direct the "moving goalposts" accusation to yourself.
Please note that ria.ru and tass.com has many, many articles regarding shooting down drone swarms, but only mention S-400 as again a component of an overall defense system, so that won't convince you.
Here is a Russian source on specifically only the S-400 being used to shoot down a Ukrainian drone:
I don't doubt for a second that the S-400 has been used to shoot down some drones. The idea that it would be used to shoot down thousands of drones as you originally claimed is preposterous to anyone familiar with the S-400 system, that's simply not it's purpose.
The question is not whether or not the S-400 is capable of doing that, of course it is. It's not going to be very good at it, but if someone was willing to waste absurd amounts of money by using the wrong equipment they could certainly reach numbers like that.
Russia isn't stupid, they're not using the S-400 to shoot down thousands of drones. They have equipment better suited for that purpose. Russia does not currently, and will likely never have sufficient numbers of S-400 interceptors to routinely intercept cheap little drones with them.
> but if someone was willing to waste absurd amounts of money by using the wrong equipment they could certainly reach numbers like that.
This depends on the missile being used. 9M96E/E2 are the high-maneuvering ones used to shoot down UAV's which have ranges of upto 40/120 km. Multiple 9M96 missiles can be carried per launcher container, making them more far more compact with operational efficiency.
You are right that you wouldn't use this against a basic "quadcopter" drone as it is still too expensive, but Ukraine does indeed have far more sophisticated, speedy/evasive "strategic" drones. They are the undisputed world-leader in drone warfare. Many times the Russians have no choice.
All of the layered Russian air defenses shooting down Ukrainian drone swarms do mention the S-400, but unfortunately they don't give exact target count to each system, so it is difficult to correlate numbers.
The S-400 isn't even really capable of shooting down the basic "quadcopter" drones, they're too small and fly far too low. You'd have to be extraordinarily lucky to be able to hit one.
I'm talking about Ukrainian shahed-equivalents here.
9M96E/E2 can be used to shoot down shahed-like UAVs, but it's not something you'd generally want to do. They don't exist in sufficient numbers and are far better suited for shooting down missiles. It's something you'd do as a last resort, when necessary. Not something you'd do to shoot down thousands of drones.
> That depends on what you personally take as rumors vs facts
I linked multiple examples of your "analyst" reporting Ukrainian successes that did not happen as facts.
> No doubt you would take all Indian/Russian media reporting the S-400 used in drone slaying as rumors
Hey, I'll happily accept that claim from any of the decent Russian milbloggers. You know, the ones that are not consistently reporting things as fact that later turn out to be false.
But you're shifting the goalposts again, we're moving from Russia shooting down thousands of drones using the S-400 to India shooting down some drones using the S-400.
Also, Ukrainian drones vary the gamut from cheap, but modern FPV drones for easy mass production to state-of-art naval drones, rivaling anything produced in the world.